To still demand perfect table manners? (teenagers)

[ShaynePunim]

Not sure who's BU - me or my kids.

They're 14 and 12. My mealtimes rules have always been:

1. Back straight
2. No elbows on the table.
3. Elbows tucked in.
4. Bring cutlery to mouth, not the other way around.
5. No reloading of fork while still chewing previous mouthful.

There are other rules I'm sure but those are the ones I constantly have to fight about!

This is the way I have been brought up but as far as I can remember my parents never had to fight for it, by the time I was 5 or so it had been drilled into me and now it would take me an actual EFFORT to eat all slouched down with my elbows on the table etc.

So I don't understand why it's such a bloody struggle to get my kids to eat like civilised human beings!

My argument is that manners are very important and I want them, when they are adults, to be able to feel comfortable and confident in any environment, and not behave like Neanderthals.

I also find it unpleasant to have to watch them eat slouched down.

My 14 y.o. is OK...whenever I say 'sit up straight' or 'elbows in', she just does it.

My 12 y.o. argues with me over it! His arguments are: 1. we are at home so they should be allowed to relax and feel comfortable and not be harassed. 2. Manners are important but I don't realise that they (my kids) already have much better manners than most kids they know so I should give them a break. 3. He thinks I am showing poor manners by criticizing them! (But I point out I am not merely criticizing for the sake of it, I am bringing them up!).

So anyway, AIBU?

I would LIKE to give them a break (it's not bloody fun for me!), only if someone could reassure me that I have sown the seeds of good manners already and if they ever get invited to tea by the Queen they'll be just fine.

But I'm scared of letting go and failing them by not ensuring they are well brought up.

chocoluvva and if the not using chopsticks in a Chinese restaurant is impolite thing is a response to my earlier post. The original is a response to the ludicrous claim that you could possibly know table ettiques for all cultures in the world. It is just not possible to teach them enough manners to be comfortable and confident in all environments. It show narrow mindedness. And if I'm eating with the queen I'm not sure if I can be confident even with he best taught table manners. I'm not posh.

And actually you couldn't get knife and forks in most eateries in East asia. You can usually get a Chinese soup spoon in Hong Kong in a Chinese restaurant. No one needs them so they don't stock them. Besides the food is cut in a way that is impossible to eat with knife and fork. You are eating with a bowl for a start. With rice in the bowl. Most food are not bite sized so you can't just use a fork and be not like cave man. Think pork ribs on a bowl of rice with a fork.

On the other hand if I'm a Saudi princess I'm sure I would be confident and comfortable even if I know nothing about British table manners. I can't inagine prince Phillip being sensitive to the host table manners in foreign countries!

OP I admire you (except for rule 5. It would make dinner time take forever, and it's also rude to keep every one else waiting for the next course while you methodically lay down your fork between every mouthful.)

We were brought up to have good table manners but my DS has severe reflux and got very ill with FTT so getting him to eat anything at any time became the priority for years. As a result my children's manners are worse than Boris at the Bullingdon. And mine have slipped a lot too. It's a big regret that I haven't managed to teach them to eat politely.

But I'd ease up a bit and suggest some lazy food nights or casual nights where they can eat pizza or wraps with their fingers in front of the tv, or with elbows on table, just so you get a balance. It's hugely advantageous to know how to behave but no one needs best behaviour all the time.

I can't inagine prince Phillip being sensitive

The rest was redundant TwoLittleTerrors

I think the whole point of table manners are so everyone at the table can sit down to enjoy dinner in a relaxed environment without causing inconvenience and offence to other diners.
OP rest assured your behaviour is not relaxed and consequently neither are your fellow diners, you are therefore showing very poor manners and example towards your fellow diners be they children or not. Gentle guidance and occasional reminders are fine but frankly I would dread every meal I shared with you.
We aim for pleasant conversation, closed months while eating, using cutlery and napkins properly. And either sitting at the table until we are all finished or asking to be excused. We have the same rules for dinner whether we eat out or not. We have dined with our children in some of the best restaurants in London and when we do they up their game because the occassion demands it, not us....I suspect you dcs will be quite capable of upping their game if they ever dine with the Queen.

Mine know how to eat when they have to eat nicely but gosh I don't think we've ever had a single rule and that libertarian approach rocks and children do well under it.

Its good to teach your children good manners but shouldn't be so strict that unknowingly you drive them away from you.. My father was quiet strict to us during dinner time result is whenever he joins us on table I used to finish up quickly and leave.

I think it's appalling manners to drag your children to 'some of the best restaurants in London'. Leave the sprogs at home!

We have this with our 12 and 14 year old. Problem is they eat in a cafeteria system at school and have very little time to eat in anything like a civilised way.

Home is the only place they will learn to eat in a reasonably polite way. It does matter because in any professional job setting eating out is likely to be a part of the job at some point and someone who eats in an untidy, slovenly and downright impolite way will show themselves and their employer up badly.

That said, I had a friend at college who could peel an orange with a knife and fork and eat it without touching it with his hands once. That was an incredibly impressive piece of high level table manners straight out of Downton Abbey.

He is a brain surgeon now.

I remember being very embarrasses at Junior school - when the headmistress had to show me how to hold my cutlery. I hadn't been taught at home- despite my DM using hers correctly she just hadn't shown us how to do so.

Since then I have been strict on it. Insisted that younger DB did the same- and used to nag him endlessly about his table manners.

DS has good table manners- and actively seeks reassurance that he is doing it correctly.

I judge people who don't eat with good manners. I suspect i am a bit obsessive over it - but can not enjoy a meal if I am at a table with someone who is hunched over, shovelling their food in.

YABU. Never heard of no. 5 either (or noticed if people are doing it or not!). As long as my dc sit up straight, use their cutlery and close their mouths while chewing, I would be happy. You don't want to make them dread mealtimes or always have that memory in their heads of family dinners.

My two have ASD (and dyspraxia and ADHD). My rules are very flexible (as they have problems with all the following) but include:

1. Sitting down for at least most of the meal.
2. Using their knife and fork. Or at least their fork.
3. No reading at table.
4. No talking about Minecraft (or whatever their latest fixation is) for the entire meal, and making sure others get to talk for a bit.
5. At least attempting to be complimentary about the meal (very hard as they have no editing facility between brain and mouth).

If I tried to get them to keep to the rules you have, my mealtimes would really be hell!

The considerate (well, he might have thought I was more likely to come back if I knew I wouldn't have to struggle so was being business-minded) Chinese waiter offering knife and fork wasn't aimed at TwoLittle. It was simply meant as an example of someone not being offended by a diner not eating in a way that is customary for their culture but more concerned about diners being at ease than struggling, just for the sake of following the rules of etiquette.

I would cut yourself some slack! I did this and they certainly know good manners but, being teens they do like to slouch and do their own thing. Now I regularly raise an eyebrow or laugh frown but I know that they will teach their children good table manners and that they notice poor table manners in others - they even remark on it.
Parents seem to have a window for teaching things and then it closes... you have done your bit now you need to build your future adult relationship with your YPs (young people).

Do people who judge others/feel uncomfortable at seeing people with supposedly 'bad' table manners (i.e not holding their fork in the way that person wants people to hold their fork) realise that it's actually their problem? And if it makes them that uncomfortable, they probably shouldn't eat in company if it really winds you up?

That's true cdwales teaching by example is better IMO, if children are nagged and nagged they will ignore it and dislike being at home.

Agree with you too Moomin

We don't even have a kitchen table yet, sadly! For now... dinner is eaten on our laps! When you're in your own home, I see no need for strict table manners! I'm not even strict in public, really. The only rule we have is to not talk with your mouth full.

The day we have a table and eat our dinner together, my one rule would be no phones etc at the table!

EatShitDerek there was one girl in my class who held her pen like that.

Don't know if she got hassles at school for it, though. Can't remember that far back very well! (her initials were CP... if that's you don't tell me unless you want to out yourself!)

I've not read the whole thread, but actually I do think teaching proper table manners is important. I'm the oldest of four and my parents were very strict with me, but by the time they got to my brother, the youngest, they had clearly given up. Now in his 30s and in a serious professional job, he still doesn't hold his fork properly (he holds it like a baby holds a spoon) and picks up food from his plate in his fingers. Totally fine if it's at home, but he eats with clients. I really do wonder what they think. It would not go down at all well in my profession.

Well he's not been sacked for his table manners has he PiratePanda? He may well be fully aware of how he should eat but doesn't care, Sometimes when you're nagged and nagged about something you do the exact opposite.

My mummy and daddy didn't nag me about table manners if they had I'd ve rebelled! I certainly didn't do that to our 3 dcs who are all fine and eat perfectly well.

I have been teaching DH to correctly eat a bowl of rice for years. He just can't manage it. He either picks the rice up with the chopstocks or slurps. I bet you don't know how either.

No, but I do have a system....

• hold chopsticks as picture on packet
• form a narrow v shape with them
• lift rice bowl nearer mouth
• use chopsticks essentially as pointy spoon without attempting pinchy movement.
• pinchy movement is only for nicking tasty-looking morsels from DHs bowl which is very bad etiquette and I would definitely ever do this at all. Oh no.

Oh, and don't stick the chopsticks vertically into bowl as this is unlucky... symbolic of death, is it?

We eat with fork and spoon or chopsticks and spoon or just chopsticks or knife and fork or knife and fork and spoon . The rules keep changing.

I wonder along with the table manners, are you teaching your dcs to be non-judgemental of other's eating habits because it really is not nice sitting with people who are so ill mannered they comment on fellow diner's habits.

The OP a few others sound almost obsessive, maybe you need to talk to someone. Over-fixating on table manners does not sound healthy.