To still demand perfect table manners? (teenagers)

[ShaynePunim]

Not sure who's BU - me or my kids.

They're 14 and 12. My mealtimes rules have always been:

1. Back straight
2. No elbows on the table.
3. Elbows tucked in.
4. Bring cutlery to mouth, not the other way around.
5. No reloading of fork while still chewing previous mouthful.

There are other rules I'm sure but those are the ones I constantly have to fight about!

This is the way I have been brought up but as far as I can remember my parents never had to fight for it, by the time I was 5 or so it had been drilled into me and now it would take me an actual EFFORT to eat all slouched down with my elbows on the table etc.

So I don't understand why it's such a bloody struggle to get my kids to eat like civilised human beings!

My argument is that manners are very important and I want them, when they are adults, to be able to feel comfortable and confident in any environment, and not behave like Neanderthals.

I also find it unpleasant to have to watch them eat slouched down.

My 14 y.o. is OK...whenever I say 'sit up straight' or 'elbows in', she just does it.

My 12 y.o. argues with me over it! His arguments are: 1. we are at home so they should be allowed to relax and feel comfortable and not be harassed. 2. Manners are important but I don't realise that they (my kids) already have much better manners than most kids they know so I should give them a break. 3. He thinks I am showing poor manners by criticizing them! (But I point out I am not merely criticizing for the sake of it, I am bringing them up!).

So anyway, AIBU?

I would LIKE to give them a break (it's not bloody fun for me!), only if someone could reassure me that I have sown the seeds of good manners already and if they ever get invited to tea by the Queen they'll be just fine.

But I'm scared of letting go and failing them by not ensuring they are well brought up.

Certainly no social climber. We attend a lot of functions which are part and parcel of DH's job as he regularly speaks at these things. It was others at the table that night that commented on his GF's lack of manners AFTER the event. No-one is interfering in Ds's relationships at all as he's a grown man and makes his own decisions where his relationships are concerned.

oops you're very lucky...

It isn't the putting cutlery together that's daft, I was brought up to do that as a sign of having finished. It's the obsession of which way the tines are pointing.

I'd clearly be considered terribly uncouth, I cannot comfortably sit with good posture or hold my fork the acceptable way.

Yes Spring, the guests at the table commenting on the woman's poor table etiquette showed themselves to be poorly mannered themselves by mentioning it but it's interesting how you seem to hold their bad manners in high esteem....using their comments to back up your own thinking. Your manners come across as snobbery rather than consideration for others.

Chocca, would children in the average home not politely bring their own plates to the kitchen after the meal and come back for their parents'? The only reason to put your cutlery together tines up on your plate at the end of the meal is to signify to the help that you have stopped eating and they can remove your plate.

Similarly, would children have to sit upright with their elbows at their sides and level with the table in order to keep from fidgeting while eating? Or could they not just sit comfortably and simply not fidget?

And I can only imagine the mess young children would make if they had to satisfy the Debrett's edict about sitting 'a comfortable distance away from the table, so that with the elbows bent the hands are level with the knives and forks.' The family pets would have a field day.

In other words, a lot of these are easier said than done for people under five feet tall. And there are easier solutions for the problems they seek to solve too.

Common sense, people...

Springtime I am totally with you. The idea that it is 'complicated' or 'stressful' to have to 'concentrate' on these rules is absurd. It's a bit like suggesting it's really hard to remember how to drive a car; once it's become habitual it's automatic. Revolting manners result in people being judged, rightly or wrongly. Why not bring your DCs up doing it correctly so they don't embarrass themselves? Not exactly the hardest thing in the world… wish DH's parents had had taught him proper table manners too, but that's a different story

would children .... not politely bring their own plates to the kitchen

No. When everyone has finished all the plates are stacked as this is more efficient than making more than one trip with the plates. It also promotes the idea of eating a meal being a communal thing. Multiple trips to and from the kitchen disrupt the flow of conversation.

'sitting a comfortable distance away from the table - I would take this to mean a distance that is comfortable for your size - and arm length. Very little children would usually be sitting on high chair or booster seat/cushion to bring them up to a comfortable/practical height anyway. (FWIW - as I said previously I have no problems with elbows on table between courses)

I wouldn't notice someone not sitting 'ramrod' straight or not having their hands on their lap either, but I assume and agree that this guidance is intended to avoid people doing things that might be irritating to others at the table, eg fiddling with cutlery (and perhaps knock it onto the floor), drumming their fingers etc.

Cutlery placed together pointing in the same direction not only means 'I've finished' but is also slightly easier to pick up and add to the stack of plates and cutlery - as mentioned above.

Alsoflamingo because the rules are arbitrary and likely to be completely different for the meals I hope my children will be enjoying throughout their lives. So what you teach is how to adapt to different rules of etiquette and to ensure that the most important thing is not to judge others.

The problem with harping on about perfectly reasonable things being "wrong" is that it does teach that judgemental attitude which simply does not work in anything but a mono-cultural world where everyone is doing it.

Teaching eating and conversing in a relaxed environment is the aim, not a particular set of arbitrary actions which will only be any use at a UKIP dinner.

The rules are pretty standard actually (not 'different for different meals').

For me, eating with one's mouth open, not waiting for others to sit down before tucking in etc are not 'perfectly reasonable' things, but rude. Of course you are entirely at liberty to disagree and bring your DCs up as you see fit; each to their own.

However, implying that people with decent table manners must be UKIP supporters is beyond pathetic.

I'd think many of the rules are universal - don't: hog the table, make noises that might be offensive to other people, lean across people, make a mess, bolt the food barely noticing how it tastes and making over-eating and indigestion more likely, or forget that you are (hopefully) lucky enough to have enough food and be eating it in good company. I could be wrong of course..... if anyone knows of a culture where those are the rules I'd be happy amazed to hear about it.

As a fairly well brought up and well-behaved foreigner in the UK, the thought that there are people laughing at me for pointing my forks the wrong way would be pretty disturbing if I actually gave a damn about these things.

Noises - nope, impolite to eat food silently in many cultures, the noise shows enjoyment.
But the rest of those chocoluvva you mention are not the ones people have been mentioning in this thread - it's elbows on table, tines pointing the wrong way, loading a fork prematurely etc.

AlsoFlamingo They're not remotely standard, they aren't even standard in the UK, let alone when you're any other country.

think the elbows thing is a bit wanky

I'm happy with elbows on the table. (as previously stated) . I'm just pointing out what I assume the reasoning behind the 'rules' is - and as someone who can't manage chopsticks and is narrowly travelled - I would never laugh at someone for holding their cutlery 'oddly'. FWIW a Chinese friend was 'slurping' his spaghetti at ours one day and no-one in the choco household mentioned it. You can have 'good' table manners and other good manners - they're not mutually exclusive. Some posters have claimed that posters who prioritise table manners and even posters who acknowledge that they do have a 'thing' about table manners are "pearl clutching" - well, there's no evidence for that - and it's rude and unhelpful to use the phrase 'pearl clutching'. IMO.

I have wondered about the elbows thing too and I have observed that very few people in restaurants resist putting their elbows on the table, so I have concluded that it's not expected or required any more - just as well as no one has been able to explain the reasoning for it.
One thing I am a stickler for is that my children know that when they are helping themselves to food at the table they only take a small amount that they think they can eat and be mindful of how much there is to go around....we had guests staying and their teenage boys demolished all the cured meats and smoked salmon before anyone had a chance to even taste them, their parents seemed to think we should feel flattered that their fussy boys ate up - I however was not so impressed that I had encouraged their fussy eaters to suddenly get a bit more adventurous, of course I just smiled, while making a mental note to instruct dcs on proper food sharing etiquette.

at your guests' boys.

I find it very difficult to not put elbows on the table - partly because I feel uncomfortable at sitting with my back against the chair if I'm trying to talk to a large table of people. I'm not confident enough to not lean in to address people. I think the reasoning behind no elbows on the table is that it probably involves cutting across the people sitting beside you or blocking their view of the other people ... or something like that. IYSWIM. Defo's old-fashioned!

But most of the time I am eating out with dh and it's just us, it's so much easier and more relaxed to talk with elbows on table and it can't possibly annoy anyone. And while the teen boys behaved awfully but it was their parents I was most shocked at but in general I shouldn't have been as they have yet to realise that their boys are no longer toddlers! Most kids we have to dinner are very well behaved and good company.

Shayne, I feel your pain! I agree with your points 1 to 5 - I could add
(6) Not loading so much food on the fork that they struggle to cram it all in their mouth. and
(7) cutting up 'long' veg (eg green beans) rather than stabbing at them and then having to 'fold' them in half to get them in their mouth.

I feel your pain, join the club, if it sounds like a chimps tea-party round at our's, it's because it is some of the time!

I don't feel it is making the DC's life miserable pointing out that they know how to eat nicely. And it tends to go hand-in-hand with eating slowly which is another good habit to get into which my DP never learned since boarding school at the age of 10

When everyone has finished all the plates are stacked as this is more efficient than making more than one trip with the plates. It also promotes the idea of eating a meal being a communal thing. Multiple trips to and from the kitchen disrupt the flow of conversation.

Why would there be multiple trips to the kitchen?
Children pick up their own plates and bring them to the kitchen in my home. One trip each. I normally bring my own plate there too. This is after we have all finished and conversation is over and also as each individual asks to leave.

When they were small they could ask to leave the table when they were finished eating, brought their own plate to the kitchen and then politely left everyone else in peace to finish eating, chat, etc. They still can do that now that they are teens and 20somethings. They sometimes have homework to get done or places to go. It doesn't disturb anyone else in the least. More often than not we sit and chat on the rare occasions when we are all together. Thanks to everyone pacing themselves, the few I have at home now usually finish eating and chatting around the same time.

You actually have to move all the cutlery off the plates if you want to stack dishes, so it is a very cumbersome method. And what do you do with all the food that is left on the plates when you are stacking them at the table? I don't force anyone to finish their food.. Plus a pile of seven or eight plates in my house would be quite heavy to carry.

The placing of cutlery really is meant as a signal to the maids. It performs no other sensible function.

I expect my dcs to lift their dishes as part of the tidying up effort, we all clear the table and load the dishwasher....and the dcs are taught to enquire as to other jobs that might need to done before they are excused.

OP, you are being thoroughly unreasonable. If you seriously equate feral behaviour with elbows on the table, or being the thin end of that particular wedge, YOU are setting your children up to fail. Allowing that particular sort of mentality to prevail is deeply troubling.

One trip per plate = multiple trips, compared with one trip with all the plates.

I don't force anyone to eat everything either .

I don't find that stacking the plates is "a cumbersome method" - you pass your plate and cutlery to the person or people sitting between you and the person who is going to take the pile to the kitchen, to add to their plate or pile of plates (or directly to the person). The plates aren't "quite heavy to carry". There are four of us; we don't make individual trips and when we have visitors I don't expect all of them to trail back and forth between the kitchen and the dining room. But it's a small house. Perhaps yours is less cramped. Maybe your plates are unusually heavy.

(Recently, I've eaten in restaurants where the food has been served on chopping boards - which are really awkward to pick up.)

I thought of this thread yesterday while we were eating in a 2 starred Michelin restaurant, in Fr., the cutlery was very beautiful, heavy and replaced at each course. But it was very relaxed and friendly and no one noticed or cared if you tried someone else's food and vice versa.

In the old days in middling eating places you had ONE set of cutlery for the WHOLE meal ) At home our Fr. friends know we haven't got a dishwasher and they kindly use the same cutlery right through the meal too!!

choco Those boards must be horrible for the waiters to carry. I also hate the fashion for eating off slate.

Ooh - I've never eaten off a slate! Why on earth would you want to do that - it's just a flat stone!

[green] at all the posters eating in lovely restaurants!

I have eaten off a slate once and I had to request that my food be put on a normal plate - the scraping noise when my cutlery touched the slate was horrendous.
I love that really good restaurants at their best are attentive but casual in their service especially in London, eating in an overly formal restaurant just isn't much fun - you desperately hope the food will make up for the stuffy atmosphere but it is often the opposite.