To still demand perfect table manners? (teenagers)

[ShaynePunim]

Not sure who's BU - me or my kids.

They're 14 and 12. My mealtimes rules have always been:

1. Back straight
2. No elbows on the table.
3. Elbows tucked in.
4. Bring cutlery to mouth, not the other way around.
5. No reloading of fork while still chewing previous mouthful.

There are other rules I'm sure but those are the ones I constantly have to fight about!

This is the way I have been brought up but as far as I can remember my parents never had to fight for it, by the time I was 5 or so it had been drilled into me and now it would take me an actual EFFORT to eat all slouched down with my elbows on the table etc.

So I don't understand why it's such a bloody struggle to get my kids to eat like civilised human beings!

My argument is that manners are very important and I want them, when they are adults, to be able to feel comfortable and confident in any environment, and not behave like Neanderthals.

I also find it unpleasant to have to watch them eat slouched down.

My 14 y.o. is OK...whenever I say 'sit up straight' or 'elbows in', she just does it.

My 12 y.o. argues with me over it! His arguments are: 1. we are at home so they should be allowed to relax and feel comfortable and not be harassed. 2. Manners are important but I don't realise that they (my kids) already have much better manners than most kids they know so I should give them a break. 3. He thinks I am showing poor manners by criticizing them! (But I point out I am not merely criticizing for the sake of it, I am bringing them up!).

So anyway, AIBU?

I would LIKE to give them a break (it's not bloody fun for me!), only if someone could reassure me that I have sown the seeds of good manners already and if they ever get invited to tea by the Queen they'll be just fine.

But I'm scared of letting go and failing them by not ensuring they are well brought up.

spring I am almost the same. Other diners habits don't make me feel sick, but I can't tear my eyes away.

We had family visiting from USA. Now, I understand the cut up food, place knife down and transfer fork to right hand rule of the USA, but that wasn't thething that made me . One in particular was just shovelling it in- says she had to as only got short lunch breaks at work?

I judged.

Ppeatfruit, your posts here have been spot on imo.

My own mum and dad were very strict when it came to table manners as was the school I attended. It's just part of me now tbh. DH went to the same school and he's the same as are school friends we still see regularly. I honestly can't bear the following:-

people who shovel food in
knife lickers
people using forks as spoons
people cutting their food with their fork
elbows on tables
people reaching over others to get to condiments
eating with mouths open
speaking with food in mouths
loading forks before the last mouthful is finished
licking fingers after eating finger food
starting eating before everyone has been served
people who put their cutlery down when they have finished a meal but then go back to pick at food on their plate with their fingers
burping at the table
scraping cutlery on plates
picking food off other people's plates "to try a bit"
people who don't put cutlery together when finished
soup slurpers

I also don't go to all you can eat buffet places or buffets as some people pick off the buffet and shove it in their mouths while loading their plates.

I'm very intolerant of other people's eating habits. However, my house and my rules.

A PP mentioned her DIL nagged her son for his table manners. My DD and DS do the same. DS finished a relationship as he couldn't deal with his Gf's table manners and she wouldn't attempt to try to see his point of view. They attended a very important social event with DH and I and she refused DS's advice on what cutlery she should have used or how to conduct herself. Her lack of manners was commented on by many people after that event. Drinking wine from bottles was not acceptable on that occasion nor was drinking the finger bowl. I still cringe thinking about it.

Are there any posts on here OP that might sway you a bit in favour of a more relaxed attitude with your DCs. I did think some of the posters made some very valid sensible points, which tbh if it was me I'd give a great deal of thought to.

I can't imagine why you care about this at all!
Meal times must take aaaages if they aren't allowed to cut foor while still chewing. What are they meant to do with their hands?
I think this is hassle for you and them and is ruining every meal time for no reason at all. As long as they chew with mouths closed and don't slop food everywhere it's fine!
I'm sure their table manners are much better uptight than the vast majority and when they are grown up they will be similar to their peers. They won't look sloppy so don't worry.
I've never understood no elbows on the table. Why is that bad?

Basic Rules of Table Manners from Debretts:

A few tips and rules for basic table manners...

Napkins should be placed on the lap as soon as you are seated. When you get down from the table, leave the napkin, unfolded on the table, to the left of the place setting.

Sit a comfortable distance away from the table, so that with the elbows bent the hands are level with the knives and forks.

Sit up straight, sit square with hands in the lap and do not fidget. Do not put elbows on the table.

If you are served a meal that is already on the plate, wait until everyone has been served before picking up your cutlery, unless invited by your host to start.

Make sure others have been offered anything they might want from the table, such as butter, water, salt or pepper. Help yourself last and never stretch across people.

Do not begin eating until everyone has been served, unless the host or hostess gives their permission for diners to start.

Eat at a relaxed pace and pace yourself to match your fellow diners.

Keep your mouth closed and try to avoid making noises of any kind while eating, either with implements against the plate or teeth, or with actual ingestion of the food, eg slurping soup.

Talking while there is food in your mouth should be avoided at all costs - even when you have a conversational gem up your sleeve.

When you have finished, place your knife and fork - with the tines facing upwards - together on your plate.

If you are confronted with a plateful that is not to your taste, try to soldier on to avoid hurt feelings. Always compliment the cook.

• See more at: www.debretts.com/british-etiquette/food-drink/table-manners/basic-rules-table-manners#sthash.QJ5mURXS.dpuf

Meal times must take aaaages if they aren't allowed to cut foor while still chewing

I haven't seen any posts that said food shouldn't be cut while chewing. The posts I read said forks shouldn't be loaded while chewing. We cut food but don't load the fork ready for it to be shovelled in. How can anyone enjoy what their eating with a fully loaded fork ready to be shoved in their face as soon as one mouthful is finished? Meal times do take time in our home. They're about taking about our day and taking time to eat and enjoy food.

How can you enjoy food when you're stressing so much about following every rule?

That Debrett's guide is ridiculous; I thought the point of fancy meals was to be enjoyed - I don't understand how you can relax at a meal when you're so caught up in appearances.

I thought the point of fancy meals was to be enjoyed - I don't understand how you can relax at a meal when you're so caught up in appearances.

It's not about appearances it's about simple table manners. I'm sat here wondering what constitutes a "fancy meal". It's not hard to be polite when eating. It's easy to relax unless someone is being disgusting in simple table manners. Personally I couldn't sit opposite someone who slurps and burps at a table, eats with their mouth open and shovels food in.

The Debrettes guide is how I was taught table manners. It's not ridiculous at all. It's simple table etiquette. It's not hard to understand!

The Debrettes guide is how I was taught table manners. It's not ridiculous at all. It's simple table etiquette. It's not hard to understand!

SpringTime, if I were you I would be cringing at your DS's behaviour and not his unfortunate girlfriend's. What a huge pity some of the other people there were as rude as your son. I hope the young lady has recovered from being spoken down to and is counting her blessings that her BF revealed his true colours.

I agree with you that some of the items on your list are most unpleasant and should not be inflicted on other diners -- eating with mouth open, speaking with mouth full and slurping soup.

But in the nicest possible way (as they say), you have a problem if you 'can't bear' people who don't put their cutlery together on their plates when they have finished eating.

(And would it be terrible of me to point out that, 'I'm sat here' is not standard English? Or that, 'They attended a very important social event with DH and I' should be, '...with DH and me')

Which bit of the Debrett's Guide is ridiculous?

Although I do call bullshit on the poster's son's girlfriend drinking wine from the bottle and water from finger bowls......... Nice try but lacks verisimilitude.

I'm not sure Hak. Maybe the gf did it deliberately to irritate the shit out of the OP Hyacynth Bucket and her delightful family.

Although I'm a little surprised the OP mixes in circles where people comment on others' bad manners. I'm certain there is something in Debretts about what appauling manners it is to discuss someone else's manners in public.

Apologies I didn't mean the OP, I meant Spring

Spring I think we can all appreciate good manners at the table but your intolerance of other's manners speaks volumes about your control issues, you seem obsessed with uncovering people's faults at the table. You are completely out of sync, which means you struggle to eat out in restaurants, and you seem to have passed on your control issues to the rest of your family which you oddly seem proud of, even to the extent that you are interfering with your son's relationships. Realise this is your problem to deal with, everyone else is not going to develop the need to follow Debretts to suit you and your family. I feel very sorry for you.

And it is absolutely awful manners to comment on someone else's manners at the table - it's definitely not considered polite conversation Spring are you attempting to be a social climber?
And as for eating out professionally and embarrassing yourself, have you people never met people in the professions - they are very normal and relaxed - they are part of our social circle and I can assure you no one eats according to the OPs rules.

We eat in front of the TV. Our rules are:

• do not eat with your mouth open
• what falls on the floor belongs to the cats and dogs
• first come first served on floor offerings, arguments are not tolerated
• wait for an invitation before licking food that has fallen on someone's clothes
• perching on someone's shoulder with the express purpose of grabbing their food between fork and mouth is strictly forbidden

My grandmother went to a Catholic school run by nuns. The girls had to eat with books under their elbows, if the books fell during the meal a nun was patrolling with a stick and gave you a whack on the back. They also had books balanced on their heads for eating and walking. She always ate before going out for dinner so that she would have a small, lady-like appetite in front of strangers ala Gone With the Wind.

Very true, Silverjohnleggedit. I think someone sitting ramrod straight with elbows glued to his or her sides and proceeding at a measured pace through the average business lunch would look like someone unable or unwilling to fit in. The vision in my mind's eye of business and even social dining involves a fair share of elbows and bonhomie, and body language that conveys ease - not superiority.

Manners are never ridiculous, but getting so caught up in insisting on table manners day in and day out that meals become a nagfest is absurd.

"wait for an invitation before licking food that has fallen on someone's clothes"

Thanks mathanxiety .

I think the Debrett's guide is ridiculous because it's so specific. Honestly, are there people whose eating experiences are ruined by the tines of someone's fork being placed downwards, or their unfolded napkin being left to the right of their place? And all that rubbish about elbows being level with knife and fork, hands in lap etc... I am relieved that I will likely never go to a meal that would require following those guidelines (as I doubt I could be friends with someone so obsessive about it).

No talking with mouth full, eating with mouth closed etc is just basic good manners, but the Debrett's guide IS crazy. As is not putting food on your fork until you have finished chewing. As is watching other people eat rather than focusing on your own food.

Hakluyt which bit... is ridiculous?

It all sounds very reasonable to me - except for hands in lap, elbows and straight back - and to be fair, those would ensure that people aren't swinging on a chair, or being unsociable via their bodylanguage. Cutlery guidelines are agreed rules that serve as code for I've either finished or not finished and let everyone know which cutlery to pick up. Putting your fork and knife together is easier when you come to gather up all the plates and cutlery at the end of the meal. It's a bit excessive to say they're ridiculous - a bit old-fashioned perhaps. But if you've been brought up to eat with those behaviours and they have become second-nature your very lucky IMO.

I'd think you can be relaxed while sitting up straight and holding cutlery in a specific way usually if that's how you've been taught.