To still demand perfect table manners? (teenagers)

[ShaynePunim]

Not sure who's BU - me or my kids.

They're 14 and 12. My mealtimes rules have always been:

1. Back straight
2. No elbows on the table.
3. Elbows tucked in.
4. Bring cutlery to mouth, not the other way around.
5. No reloading of fork while still chewing previous mouthful.

There are other rules I'm sure but those are the ones I constantly have to fight about!

This is the way I have been brought up but as far as I can remember my parents never had to fight for it, by the time I was 5 or so it had been drilled into me and now it would take me an actual EFFORT to eat all slouched down with my elbows on the table etc.

So I don't understand why it's such a bloody struggle to get my kids to eat like civilised human beings!

My argument is that manners are very important and I want them, when they are adults, to be able to feel comfortable and confident in any environment, and not behave like Neanderthals.

I also find it unpleasant to have to watch them eat slouched down.

My 14 y.o. is OK...whenever I say 'sit up straight' or 'elbows in', she just does it.

My 12 y.o. argues with me over it! His arguments are: 1. we are at home so they should be allowed to relax and feel comfortable and not be harassed. 2. Manners are important but I don't realise that they (my kids) already have much better manners than most kids they know so I should give them a break. 3. He thinks I am showing poor manners by criticizing them! (But I point out I am not merely criticizing for the sake of it, I am bringing them up!).

So anyway, AIBU?

I would LIKE to give them a break (it's not bloody fun for me!), only if someone could reassure me that I have sown the seeds of good manners already and if they ever get invited to tea by the Queen they'll be just fine.

But I'm scared of letting go and failing them by not ensuring they are well brought up.

What are they like when they are not with you?

My teenager has pretty low standards of manners when he is at home with just DH and I but I am constantly told that he is a pleasure when he is at other people's homes, behaves beautifully, is helpful, polite etc etc etc.

Of course I wish he would be like that with us but at least it is good to know that he knows how to behave 'properly'.

I think you're right, OP. If they don't learn not to embarrass themselves in company from you, where will they learn it? They can eat like animals when they move out if that's what they prefer. In fact, why not offer to build a little pen in the garden so they can eat like slobs or animals? Not a popular suggestion in my house.

Your rules do seem a bit strict and formal for at home but I also think it is good that you set standards.
I know teenagers who use their phone at meal times or watch TV and younger children who are allowed to get down and run around or throw food about.
I do get your point about being a single parent and trying to keep some sort of order in case everythng went pear shaped! I felt like that too but there is a danger you never feel any pleasure bringing your children up!

God, I identify with the single parent 'tight ship'. I do it about how they talk as well.

I have eased up now they are older teenagers though, and it's very liberating.

It's not a case of if you're not dabbing your lips with a napkin and passing the port to the left you must eat like a pig in a trough though is it? It is possible to be pleasant to be around when you're eating without getting hung up on often pointless rules of etiquette.

And if you're talking about manners I think interrupting someone when they're talking to criticise their elbows is rude. Sticking the elbows out in the first place is only rude if you're at risk of jabbing someone else in the ribs.

I can understand from your latest post why you are so concerned about it though, OP. I bet your boys are a credit to you when they're out.

It's not a case of if you're not dabbing your lips with a napkin and passing the port to the left you must eat like a pig in a trough though is it?

Not necessarily, but I'm not a fan of slippage - I want my kids to be confident that their manners are as good as anybody's when they start to socialise outside the home. I don't want them to be humiliated by realizing that all their friends do these things and they don't. My end goal is to not have them come home and ask why I never told them to bring their food to their mouth rather than their mouth to their food.

YABU! Nagging doesn't work on teenagers and you're just creating more stress in your day to day life. You have taught them what to do, they will remember when they're older and in a situation they need to do it.

I've never understood this 'elbows on the table is bad manners' carry-on. Why and who the hell says so in the first place ?

Try to relax at the table OP, none of us are at Buckingham Palace . Otherwise you'll end up with stressy ulcers and you won't be eating anything .

But if you over-do it apocalypse, as the OP seems to be doing (understandably...) they'll never want to come back!

You come across quite uptight IMHO.

While table manners are important to a degree, mealtimes to me are time to sit together as a family, chat, catch up, spend quality time together etc. It sounds utterly miserable especially for a kid to have to endure all these rules to eat their bloody food.

Aslong as they're not slopping food up the walls and licking their plates, honestly what does it really matter?!

But if you over-do it apocalypse, as the OP seems to be doing (understandably...) they'll never want to come back!

Well I'm prepared to take the risk if they're not the unfortunates slyly slipping their elbows off the table when they notice that nobody else has them there but they haven't developed the habit of not keeping them off automatically.

I don't usually like the word "respect" but I think it's incredibly disrespectful to have lovely manners for other people and horrible ones for family. Surely by 12 and 14 manners should be so ingrained you don't even think about them- it's just how you eat. Oh, and why wouldn't you "dab your lips with a napkin" wherever you are eating? What's the alternative- wiping your mouth on your sleeve?

I don't imagine it will be long before they move out OP

Sorry but you sound like you're running an army camp.

We're strict on manners in this house but what you describe, doesn't sound like it makes for a happy meal time.

No, rubbing your mouth with your snot rag, of course.

You're doing it again. Just because we don't use napkins when we eat at home doesn't mean we wipe our mouths on our sleeves, or snotrags.

We do insist on good table manners, just not to the extent the OP describes. DS has better table manners than any of the children who have so far been to eat at our house. I'm told that he has behaved nicely at others' houses as well.

I drummed into mine the importance of manners table and otherwise, it felt like a losing battle but two things made me unclench, one was other parents complimenting me on how well mannered Ds was when he was at theirs and second was DH saying 'y'know the boys will care about and remember the love and fun much more than if they held a knife and fork properly and lived in a spotless house' I was bordering on being a bit obsessive about stuff and he brought me down to earth. I am much more relaxed now and much less stressed as a consequence.

Its not just about table manners though. It is about learning manners in general. We should have some standards but I think there are times at home to relax the rules a bit during a family meal. The teenagers must know what you expect by now and would fall back into that on the right occasions.

So which of the OP's rules are unreasonable? They all seem perfectly normal to me.

I agree that the constant nagging is a really bad thing- but that's a different argument, surely?

You are doing your kids a very good service, it's so nice to see beautifully mannered people, I can't stand slobby eating, I think schools encourage it by serving children their lunch on bloody plastic slop trays, keep on nagging, they will thank you one day, we eat all our dinners at the table and have napkins, you can never have too good manners

OP, as someone else has said, you have answered your own question. You are carrying a lot of responsibility and are worried that if you let one little thing slip the whole house of cards will come tumbling down. It won't you know - all that really matters is to love and enjoy them, so do try not to stress about something so small. I think it's one of those 'what would you think on your death bed?' questions - would you wish they'd kept their elbows tucked in more, or that you'd had more time to laugh and chat? (That's not to dismiss manners: just that I believe in prioritising the ones that impact most on other people - like not interrupting someone who's talking, and remembering to appreciate things that people have done for you.)

Get a grip! My dad was like you I soon stopped eating with him as every meal was a battle and no fun for anyone. For the record I know how to eat nicely if I have too

Get a grip! My dad was like you I soon stopped eating with him as every meal was a battle and no fun for anyone. For the record I know how to eat nicely if I have too

I too think you need to chill.
If you are interupting conversation to nag to that extent then I wonder what you are achieving.
Mealtimes, above everything else should be social times. Yes, I agree with a certain level of manners - respect for others, listening to what they are saying, not speaking with your mouth full, but I think you are being OTT with your list.

That sounds utterly miserable. I think certain manners like saying please and thank you and asking to leave the table are important, perhaps because they impact on others, but in all honestly not reloading the fork while chewing is positively draconian.

At the risk of looking like an uncivilised trollope to you all, what exactly is rude about putting elbows on the table?

I would say stop having a go at them and take them out to a restaurant once ever couple of months or so and see whether they do know the table manners as they insist they do!