To still demand perfect table manners? (teenagers)

[ShaynePunim]

Not sure who's BU - me or my kids.

They're 14 and 12. My mealtimes rules have always been:

1. Back straight
2. No elbows on the table.
3. Elbows tucked in.
4. Bring cutlery to mouth, not the other way around.
5. No reloading of fork while still chewing previous mouthful.

There are other rules I'm sure but those are the ones I constantly have to fight about!

This is the way I have been brought up but as far as I can remember my parents never had to fight for it, by the time I was 5 or so it had been drilled into me and now it would take me an actual EFFORT to eat all slouched down with my elbows on the table etc.

So I don't understand why it's such a bloody struggle to get my kids to eat like civilised human beings!

My argument is that manners are very important and I want them, when they are adults, to be able to feel comfortable and confident in any environment, and not behave like Neanderthals.

I also find it unpleasant to have to watch them eat slouched down.

My 14 y.o. is OK...whenever I say 'sit up straight' or 'elbows in', she just does it.

My 12 y.o. argues with me over it! His arguments are: 1. we are at home so they should be allowed to relax and feel comfortable and not be harassed. 2. Manners are important but I don't realise that they (my kids) already have much better manners than most kids they know so I should give them a break. 3. He thinks I am showing poor manners by criticizing them! (But I point out I am not merely criticizing for the sake of it, I am bringing them up!).

So anyway, AIBU?

I would LIKE to give them a break (it's not bloody fun for me!), only if someone could reassure me that I have sown the seeds of good manners already and if they ever get invited to tea by the Queen they'll be just fine.

But I'm scared of letting go and failing them by not ensuring they are well brought up.

There is only one rule, and that is to be considerate to others and don't put them off their food, not even if you think that means more for you.

Agree uptoapoint but some people seem to be particularly easy to offend - where to draw the line....when an individual gets offended because someone has loaded the fork before swallowing? Surely there comes a point when sticklers should allow everyone to eat in peace and they should just eat alone?

Either chalk it down to experience and never eat with the easily-offended again (and it makes good conversation with the DC "Remember the time when ..." - they say a good narrative helps maintain good relationships with DC, so pretty useful), or start a scintillating conversation so no one notices any failings in "manners" (good practice of diversion - one of the tactics in Sun Tze's Art of War).

We haven't come across serious sticklers to any rules so far. We lead a sheltered life.

I agree that teaching children manners is important. When I was a child I spent time in children's homes I was taught to have manners in all areas not just at the table. When I returned home it was my job to do the shopping I would say to the shopkeeper 'please may I have (whatever)' There was always a look of surprise on the shopkeepers faces. I taught my son to have manners and respect and it has stood him in good stead.

Also, learning to eat slower and more relaxed is a way of avoiding indigestion and other problems as you get older. It makes sense.

Silverjohn I also teach the DC that manners is something you should have but not something you insist other people have.

It is a bit much to insist this all the time at home. They must feel completly stressed out during meal times! Seems a little outdated too.

I quite like the original post - it's much harder to learn good habits as an adult (I always eat with my knife and fork the wrong way round and I wish I didn't!). And totally get the point about running a tighter ship due to being lone parent.

But would say that if 12yo finds it a bit dictatorial, it would be better to rise above it and allow him his free will (while not backing down on the idea that manners are a GOOD THING, in general). Something like 'you'll be grateful when you're out and about that you've got good manners to fall back on'.

(i.e. It can make you feel a bit awkward if you realise that good manners are called for but you're not confident in your own - I speak from experience!)

But, I would allow him his free will if he's made a conscious decision that it's OTT for home. I grew up with one lad who now rebels against any kind of authority/establishment even when it's beneficial, and I'm sure it's cause he didn't get any wiggle room at all from his parents - it works for some kids but kids of a more questioning nature may feel they are being controlled more than supported and it could really backfire - so worth respecting his view even if you don't agree with it. At least he knows what good manners are and can trot them out when needed.

But make it a clear 'I'm going to respect your opinion even though I don't agree with you' rather than just an 'I give up'. I remember my mum doing this with me a couple of times and it really works and sets a good pattern for future disagreements.

Caveat - this is just my opinion and have no experience of bringing up kids beyond the age of 9 days!

Here is my main rule for 10yo DD: Cut the meat; don't whack the fork into it, turn the fork over, and eat it like a "meat pop".

I am ancient and was spent a lot of time as a child with grandparents who were brought up by Victorians. They insisted on silence at the table (from children, bread and butter must eaten before you have pudding, immaculate use of cutlery or you left the table. Funnily enough I can remember lots of conversations at the table so it must have been ok to talk after the food was finished.
Elbows on the table was not allowed because there were loads of us and the table was tiny!

My mother went into service so we then had a whole new layer of etiquette to deal with. My obsession with milk jugs and tea cups probably stems from her.

My children have great manners, their children too, more relaxed than my upbringing but still an insistence on politeness, consideration and pleasant eating. (Except for the BF baby, he's a slurper

I no longer eat bread but always had a side plate if there was bread and butter. I find people don't always know which side drinks go, side plates etc
I do get frustrated with the amount of food children leave, I know this stems from being poor, but also because it really is a waste of resources

OP, I think you know that you can relax a little. I am sure your children have lovely manners. Talk to them about this, explain your feelings of wanting the best for them. It will be obvious to you and other adults that this is your motivation, but teenagers aren't famous for picking up on sub texts and subtleties!

Thank you Kubbs and Earthymama.

(And all other kind helpful posters). :)

Some very good and very much appreciated advice.

Speaking here as a single mother of five, youngest 13, who successfully taught her DCs to eat the British/Irish way even though they are American and grew up in America...

'I don't understand why it's such a bloody struggle to get my kids to eat like civilised human beings!'
It's not a dressage event, and they are not going to be invited to tea with the Queen. So I don't understand either why you are engaged in this struggle with them. Far from aiding digestion, the constant scrutiny and criticism you are subjecting your children to would put me off eating. What is eating you?

Your 12 year old is telling you you can't see the forest for the trees, and he is right. Expecting table manners is fine as far as it goes, but the constant nagging, the interruption of conversation to nag and the losing sight of the big picture is not. If you want to teach them manners, have them prepare dinner a few nights a week, set the table, clear up afterwards, load the dishwasher and straighten up the kitchen. Manners is about consideration for others. What you are teaching them is how to pander to someone else's inability to get a grip.

As to the strict standards of posture and pacing that you expect, and related to a point Ppeatfruit made when your children get out in the world they are going to look stiff (literally) and uncomfortable and out of their element if they adhere to the way you are trying to train them the opposite of confident in other words. Or they are going to appear as if they are deliberately not making an effort to put other people at ease.

YABVU; this is all incredibly anal.
You need to address your anxiety about being a single parent and preparing them for life. The problem is you, not their manners.

Haven't read whole thread, but an older relative in my extended family is like you - it is very draining for my DCs - especially given that he doesn't display good manners himself in other areas. Eg he'll grumble constantly when eating out, whinge about the cost even when he's not paying.

I personally think that please/ thankyous/ showing genuine gratitude are more important than perfect table manners

I am strict about tables manners.

1. Don't eat with your mouth full
2. Don't interrupt
3. No phones etc at the table.
4. Use the cutlery properly - I never need to mention this, they just do it so it's not really a rule just them doing what they were taught when they were small.

Yes, thanks mathanxiety For actually reading and commenting on my posts

There is a broader issue here too. To insist on 'obedience' all the time seems IMO to be one of the reasons why predatory adults succeeded in their designs against children. It's the way most children were bought up before the 60s, not to question adults.

ShaynePunim You don't sound that unreasonable, it's the way you come across in your original post.

My rules are

Don't eat until everything is served up
Don't talk with your mouth full
Keep your mouth closed when chewing
Don't shove food into your mouth like you haven't eaten for weeks
Don't push your brothers
Say thank you

Oh and no electronics.

I do hope that all the posters with their lists of 'DON'TS' are more positive in their other dealings with their dcs. It can't make for a very relaxed meal time.

And that they also model the exquisite manners that they expect from their dcs. No electronics, I'lll let dh know about that one .

I'm completely anal about table manners and always have been. My children all have impeccable table manners well they do in front of us (they're all now pretty much grown up). Manners, especially table manners, were something that was non negotiable in our house and at the school my children went to. Our meals at home are relaxed and there's no issues with any of us feeling uptight as it's our normal. However, on occasion, when GF/BF's have come to eat with us some do feel uncomfortable as their normal is different to ours. I personally can't eat if someone has virtually no table manners. We only eat out at restaurants with tables where I know I can sit with my back to other diners due to this. It makes me feel physically sick if I see someone lick a knife for example and my appetite disappears. DH is the same.

Spring that sounds awful for you, have you thought about getting therapy....seriously I eat out at least once a week and other diners are not something I ever think about, I can't imagine how awful it would be to try and eat in public when you are so obsessive.

Spring I understand exactly where you are coming from. I hate bad table manners, especially eating with their mouth open.

I even got one of the kids adenoids taken out as he always had his mouth open. Put me off my food.

"It makes me feel physically sick if I see someone lick a knife for example and my appetite disappears."

That is pretty weird.

Perhaps somebody licking knives may put me off my food too... But usually I'm too busy scoffing my own food to notice other people's table manners.

I'm one of the MILs whose DIL chastises her DH about his awful manners... Our mealtimes were relaxed, but we all have good table manners and don't get stared at in public
However, DIL is fixated on DGC's manners, and acts much like the OP, shouting and nagging to the exclusion of all pleasantness. I'm sure that she is only trying to do her best for her DC - but when I visit, I sit there meal after meal, listening to her berate my DS for his terrible table manners (they're really not - but I would say that wouldn't I ? ) with my teeth glued firmly together (makes it difficult to eat) to prevent me from pointing out to her that, as it was me who taught DS these manners, she's being really insulting to me...
I'm sure it'll all pan out in the end, but it makes mealtimes a bit tense (to say the least) and not so pleasant. This too shall pass...