To still demand perfect table manners? (teenagers)

[ShaynePunim]

Not sure who's BU - me or my kids.

They're 14 and 12. My mealtimes rules have always been:

1. Back straight
2. No elbows on the table.
3. Elbows tucked in.
4. Bring cutlery to mouth, not the other way around.
5. No reloading of fork while still chewing previous mouthful.

There are other rules I'm sure but those are the ones I constantly have to fight about!

This is the way I have been brought up but as far as I can remember my parents never had to fight for it, by the time I was 5 or so it had been drilled into me and now it would take me an actual EFFORT to eat all slouched down with my elbows on the table etc.

So I don't understand why it's such a bloody struggle to get my kids to eat like civilised human beings!

My argument is that manners are very important and I want them, when they are adults, to be able to feel comfortable and confident in any environment, and not behave like Neanderthals.

I also find it unpleasant to have to watch them eat slouched down.

My 14 y.o. is OK...whenever I say 'sit up straight' or 'elbows in', she just does it.

My 12 y.o. argues with me over it! His arguments are: 1. we are at home so they should be allowed to relax and feel comfortable and not be harassed. 2. Manners are important but I don't realise that they (my kids) already have much better manners than most kids they know so I should give them a break. 3. He thinks I am showing poor manners by criticizing them! (But I point out I am not merely criticizing for the sake of it, I am bringing them up!).

So anyway, AIBU?

I would LIKE to give them a break (it's not bloody fun for me!), only if someone could reassure me that I have sown the seeds of good manners already and if they ever get invited to tea by the Queen they'll be just fine.

But I'm scared of letting go and failing them by not ensuring they are well brought up.

I remember really suffering when my older brother took it into his head to make sure I had good table manners, I couldn't say or do anything without being constantly criticised. It was a phase, but how I suffered. And the story was that this was so you wouldn't be embarrassed if the Queen came to tea. As if...

As a young adult, I spent some time with a family of the type that did eat with members of the Royal family and I was never so shocked... forget all the fine details, they would fart and burp at the table and think it was uproariously funny.

But do you squash all the leftover food into plate/food sandwiches? Or do you have a slop bucket at the table?

One trip each isn't multiple trips. It's one trip each. Once you leave the table then you are gone, chez moi. You don't come back. If there is dessert then we all clear the table of all dinner items before we sit down again.

If we have guests the DCs take one plate of their own and one guest's plate, and someone takes mine too. Then they spirit the rest of the dinner stuff away too, and bring dessert, any necessary plates or bowls, and coffee stuff.

DD2 once dropped a stack of seven plates on her way to set the table (Johnson 'Willow Blue') and the whole stack bounced. She didn't as much as chip a single plate.

I was thinking about this thread when I was in Nando's with DCs on Sunday. I estimated that, at any given time. approximately 75% of diners had their elbows on the table and I couldn't spot anyone sitting bolt upright. It actually would have looked strange if everyone was sitting with a straight back with their elbows tucked in or hands in their lap.

Well of course it would look strange in Nandos. Or at a picnic or when you're eating off a tray in front of the telly. We're talking about when we're eating at a table.

"all the leftover food" - "slop bucket"

Precious few leftovers usually. Come to think of it we, like every other household in this (Scottish) region, have a lidded bucket and biodegradable bags for food waste. These are collected every week by the council recycling people. I assume they're 'fed' to a biomass digester but I could be wrong - presumably they're not added to an authority compost pile - it would be a compost mountain. (I've tried having my own compost pile a couple of times but it was unsuccessful.)

Hakluyt They have tables in nandos....

The point is, the etiquette differs, it's rude to sit straight backed away from your partner in a romantic dinner for 2, it's rude to all sit straight backed in an informal restaurant like nandos. Just like it's rude to slump all over a table at a formal dinner.

The question is, do you want your home to be a formal or informal place?

I disagree that it's rude to "sit all straight backed in an informal restaurant like nandos*. Why? It might or might not be typical behaviour but that doesn't make it rude. Some people have good posture. sadly I'm not one of them

chocoluvva because formality is out of place in an informal situation - obviously just sitting straight back is not actually enough to be formal, so just doing that would not be a faux pas, but the whole formal dinner etiquette would be wrong.

Better to be too formal than too informal IMO. No-one is likely to be offended or inconvenienced by diners in a Nandos behaving in the way OP likes. So it couldn't be described as rude, even though it might not be typical behaviour. I'd be surprised if the other diners took much notice.

chocoluvva we've already established from the OP that her two dining companions are offended and inconvenienced by the inappropriate formality, obviously if everyone agrees to the etiquette no-one has a problem wherever or whatever it is.

The problem comes when people disagree on the formality and etiquette, it's rude to your dinner companions to be over formal, just like it's rude to be the opposite, it all depends on the context.

One of her dining companions is offended by having his dining behaviour criticised when he is at home.

But what happens to it if it is left on plates? Sad little spoonfuls of mashed potatoes, bones from chops, bits of fat...

She nags constantly according to both her own words and the complaint of the 12 yo, and refers to teenagers and 'them' in her OP, so I gathered that both of her teens/tweens are subjected to the criticism at meals.

She chivvies the 14 yo -- 'My 14 y.o. is OK...whenever I say 'sit up straight' or 'elbows in', she just does it.' The sitting up straight and keeping elbows in seem not to be coming naturally to her, or perhaps she thinks it is all pointless and she is willing to give in just to be allowed to finish her meal in peace, or perhaps she is fighting back in a quieter way than her 12 yo who correctly points out her far worse lack of manners.

'I don't understand why it's such a bloody struggle to get my kids to eat like civilised human beings!'

'I would LIKE to give them a break'

-- I think we can assume they are both fed up to the back teeth of it. It is not even pleasant for her.

God only knows what goes on when they are out.

It all depends IMO Choco It you're too formal in an informal situation (which most are nowadays) then you 'show up' others unnecessarily and that is rude in itself.

FGS chill out .

On holidays last year, we dined in an awfully stuffy 2 Michellin starred restaurant for lunch, it was so formal I could hardly breath and all that bowing and scrapping was a bit OTT and then in the evening we ate in a fantastic burger joint, which requested that you did not eat their burgers with a knife and fork, they found formality offensive - it was very funny watching dh squirm, as he hates eating with his hands but the burgers did taste amazing, I can't recall how many napkins we went through maybe 10 each - surely the sign of a good burger!.

The contrast was startling, the burger joint was definitely the star venue for both food and atmosphere!

Oh I hate those 'up themselves' restaurants Silverjohn . Now they are BAD mannered IMO!

If you were in Fr. I've found that the Fr. waiters are usually the best; they have the right balance of respect for themselves and the customers; no fake bowing and scraping.

Scraping as in fawning or scraping the plates?

Sometimes their heads 'scrape the floor' chocoluvva The plates are left to the 'minions' to clear !