To still demand perfect table manners? (teenagers)

[ShaynePunim]

Not sure who's BU - me or my kids.

They're 14 and 12. My mealtimes rules have always been:

1. Back straight
2. No elbows on the table.
3. Elbows tucked in.
4. Bring cutlery to mouth, not the other way around.
5. No reloading of fork while still chewing previous mouthful.

There are other rules I'm sure but those are the ones I constantly have to fight about!

This is the way I have been brought up but as far as I can remember my parents never had to fight for it, by the time I was 5 or so it had been drilled into me and now it would take me an actual EFFORT to eat all slouched down with my elbows on the table etc.

So I don't understand why it's such a bloody struggle to get my kids to eat like civilised human beings!

My argument is that manners are very important and I want them, when they are adults, to be able to feel comfortable and confident in any environment, and not behave like Neanderthals.

I also find it unpleasant to have to watch them eat slouched down.

My 14 y.o. is OK...whenever I say 'sit up straight' or 'elbows in', she just does it.

My 12 y.o. argues with me over it! His arguments are: 1. we are at home so they should be allowed to relax and feel comfortable and not be harassed. 2. Manners are important but I don't realise that they (my kids) already have much better manners than most kids they know so I should give them a break. 3. He thinks I am showing poor manners by criticizing them! (But I point out I am not merely criticizing for the sake of it, I am bringing them up!).

So anyway, AIBU?

I would LIKE to give them a break (it's not bloody fun for me!), only if someone could reassure me that I have sown the seeds of good manners already and if they ever get invited to tea by the Queen they'll be just fine.

But I'm scared of letting go and failing them by not ensuring they are well brought up.

What a horrible environment to try and eat in !

Good god unclench. It's a home not a 5 star restaurant !

You'd hate me - I don't even have a table to eat off.

But it's not the perfectly normal table manners that are making it a horrible environment- it's that the kids aren't using them!

It's strange that lots of peopl are saying the rules are too strict, but they qre saying they expect very similar behaviour.

No slouching over your plate.
No elbows on the table while using a knife and fork.
No elbowing your nighbour in the ribs.
No hovering your mouth an inch above the plate and shovelling food in.
No gobbling.

Do they sound less strict put like that?

I think constantly picking at someone when they are trying to eat and the level of manners OP is expecting is far too much and yes would be an unpleasant environment to eat in.

I think the re loading the folk thing is what does it for me. I wouldn't even notice much less think it was bad manners.

The second nature thing is the problem - "table manners" are not an absolute, what is polite in one cultural situation can be rude in another. Many North Americans expect you to keep your left hand in your lap when it's not actually required for cutting food, but that's weird even to most Brits let alone a European.

A rigid insistence in manners is harmful, whilst a foreigner always has some leeway in formal situations, it's much better if you can minimise the need by not being too rigid in your own manners and gain cope easily in different cultures.

As others have said, manners have failed miserably if the atmosphere is tense, their whole purpose is to remove tension.

I was strict about table manners and I'm pleased to say that, as adults, my dcs are extremely well mannered.

However, your rules do seem to ignore the fact that mealtimes are also supposed to be a social occasion. In fact, I'd say that an essential element of table manners is one's ability to be good company at the table. Good manners should have been instilled by now and mealtimes should be far more relaxed. If all you do is nag then, quite frankly, dinnertime must be a fairly grim occasion.

I think you are asking far too much of your dcs and have a set of rules that would be more appropriate to the Victorian dinner table. Of course your dcs should sit up at the table and not slouch all over it. They should not start eating until everyone is served and neither should they eat like pigs at a trough. They should ask if they may get down from the table afterwards too. But ultimately, everyone should enjoy mealtimes too.

I call bullshit!

Yes people expect manners and teach their own the op is still nagging 2 teenagers so something isn't working why isn't it working and what can the op do to sort it . Clearly the op and her children are stress ing and arguing about this

Its obvious isn't mrsjay ? OP forgot the very first rule in table etiquette, you shouldn't talk with a mouthful of food. Now if she had remembered this table manner her teens would not be able to answer back because they would be concentrating on chewing, swallowing and the re-loading the fork, they wouldn't have time to answer back

Sounds awful! You sound really strict and naggy and it doesn't sound like your children enjoy meal times with you very much.

I think it's important for children to be aware of good manners but to be able to relax and have their friends over have a nice meal where they can chat and not live in fear that they or their friends might show bad manners.

People have a better time when relaxed and not sat upright and highly conscious of every move they make at the table.

Do your kids dread having friends over for dinner? Do you impose the same rules on visiting children?

There is little point in rules for the sake of rules. No elbows on the table is a rule for the sake of having a rule and is pointless. Why should anyone find it offensive, unless they just enjoy being offended?

Not refilling your fork while still chewing is also pointless. Why on earth not refill it? I always have and probably always will.

I have no truck either with forks being used like spoons. Not remotely offensive in my book.

I guess some people might call me uncouth. They might have a point, but I couldn't be arsed to live my life in such a formal straight jacket.

OP your rules are out of the Victorian era or workhouse.

Lighten up up.

Also, if your children have been brought up like this, it's likely that these 'rules' would be second nature and you wouldn't be having this battle now.

Sounds like the issues are yours and not theirs.

What do people think of these rules?

No slouching over your plate.
No elbows on the table while using a knife and fork because it's really awkward and will probably mean your dinner skites off the plate onto the table.
No elbowing your nighbour in the ribs.
No hovering your mouth an inch above the plate and shovelling food in.
No gobbling.

Ah, I see what you did there.

Mine have been brought up with these "rules" from a very early age. However they both went through a very messy stage, as young teenagers but I recognised it wasn't really their faults.

In my DDs' case this was due to
-having teeth with were too big and not being in the correct position(corrected with braces later) but this resulted in it being very difficult to eat with mouth closed (especially with DD1 who had teeth like bigs bunny at 11-14) this dribbling was normal

-developing arms which were way too big for their brains and body resulting in their arms and elbows wandering all over the place.

-brain fog

Hd your DS got any of these issues Op?

Sorry for typos- not sure what my excuse is.

Hak you already posted them.

They are all extremes of what the op is trying to avoid. You definitely string the pot. You can be far less strict than the op and still not be doing what you are stating.

You can be relaxed and not be directly slouching over your plate.
you can put an elbow on the table it have no baring on how you eat.
If you can elbow someone at the table then your sitting far to close and should look into giving your neighbour some more personal space.
You can eat and meet mouth and fork in the middle
You can have your fork loaded and still not be gobbling your food.

Our rules are
No smacking your mouth when you chew
No elbows
Food to face, not face to food
"It's not a lollipop" is a phrase I often hear myself say...

*excuse typos

Yes! I am wont to remind teens that food is not a lollipop (or popsicle) my younger son has a tendency to nibble off his fork.

Jesus Christ woman, chill, I'm with your kids on this one!

YABU

The OP sounds like my long dead grandmother! As children we thought that her rules were hilarious, and I found listening to my grandfather drinking soup quite disgusting - slurping was considered good manners back then!

What I want from a meal time is conversation, it's the time when we all sit together and talk about our days and our thoughts and I think that is way more important than the stilted manners she is trying to instill.

My children (also teens) are well aware that in some situations they need to have different manners, for example they never swear in front of my mother, sit ever so nicely at the table, say thank you repeatedly etc etc. At home I only complain if dd tries the lollipop approach or if ds sits with one knee up.

Neither gobble, poke other people with elbows (except if they are having a mutual playfight, obviously discouraged) or put their faces in their food but that doesn't mean a poker straight back or elbows tucked in at all times. Both sound very formal and restricting and we don't often eat formally. When we do they behave for the occasion as I am sure the OP's children would too.

My understanding of the elbows thing is that elbows are OK on the table but NOT when you are actually transferring food to mouth. Pretty sure you are not committing a faux pas just by resting elbows upon the table at any point.

Fuck me, if I know you please don't ever invite me round for dinner. What should be a lovely bonding experience with your kids is being turned into torture.

At my grandparents we had to sit with our wrists on the edge of the table when not actively using our hands. Proof that we weren't up to no good I think.