To still demand perfect table manners? (teenagers)

[ShaynePunim]

Not sure who's BU - me or my kids.

They're 14 and 12. My mealtimes rules have always been:

1. Back straight
2. No elbows on the table.
3. Elbows tucked in.
4. Bring cutlery to mouth, not the other way around.
5. No reloading of fork while still chewing previous mouthful.

There are other rules I'm sure but those are the ones I constantly have to fight about!

This is the way I have been brought up but as far as I can remember my parents never had to fight for it, by the time I was 5 or so it had been drilled into me and now it would take me an actual EFFORT to eat all slouched down with my elbows on the table etc.

So I don't understand why it's such a bloody struggle to get my kids to eat like civilised human beings!

My argument is that manners are very important and I want them, when they are adults, to be able to feel comfortable and confident in any environment, and not behave like Neanderthals.

I also find it unpleasant to have to watch them eat slouched down.

My 14 y.o. is OK...whenever I say 'sit up straight' or 'elbows in', she just does it.

My 12 y.o. argues with me over it! His arguments are: 1. we are at home so they should be allowed to relax and feel comfortable and not be harassed. 2. Manners are important but I don't realise that they (my kids) already have much better manners than most kids they know so I should give them a break. 3. He thinks I am showing poor manners by criticizing them! (But I point out I am not merely criticizing for the sake of it, I am bringing them up!).

So anyway, AIBU?

I would LIKE to give them a break (it's not bloody fun for me!), only if someone could reassure me that I have sown the seeds of good manners already and if they ever get invited to tea by the Queen they'll be just fine.

But I'm scared of letting go and failing them by not ensuring they are well brought up.

YANBU - we have the same rules and the same need for constant prompting. DH can be over the top sometimes because he gets angry about it where I am more likely to do quiet reminders.

No.1 slouches and takes his mouth to the food and not the food to his mouth.
No.2 cuts up everything and switches to just a fork which I HATE, HATE, HATE and eats with her mouth open.
No.3 has a tendency to bolt her food and elbows.

Mine are 15, 14 and 12. They have remarked how their table manners are better than their peers - brilliant! Still not good enough for me and says more about their peers than them, in my opinion!

Dear me. There are rules and then there are rules

*Mouth closed when chewing

Thats my list.

I am assuming your teenagers are not face planting and troughing on their dinner I know you want manners but not reloading their fork and straight back seems really formal andtbh sstressful yes we all like manners but do you not think that by arguing that your q2yr old wants to eat his tea in peace

I think there is a difference between table manners and formality; OP you seem to expect formality from your children when they are eating at home. That's not what I want in my house - I will expect good table manners from DS (he's only 18m) but also want a relaxed dining table. It is possible to have both.

I think YABU.

I used to live with someone obsessed with manners. Constant reminders to take elbows off the table, don't eat with mouth open, etc etc. I dreaded every meal time. It was a large part of why I asked him to leave. There was no conversation, no lighter, no enjoyment of the food. Just criticism from beginning to end. The result wasn't good manners - it was unhappiness.

I hope you aren't like my ex OP.....

No laughter. Not lighter!

YABVU.

Isn't the point of table manners to enhance enjoyment of the meal for all parties?

In your situation, no one is enjoying themselves. You are to busy getting hung up on pointless rules (I'm another person who doesn't understand why exactly elbows on the table are rude) and your poor children are being nagged to death.

I agree with your 12 year old.

How crushing that you would think that the exact angle of his elbows was more important than whatever it was he was talking to you about!

I couldn't sit at a table if my children didn't remember their manners. There's no excuse for bad table manners in our house. Our rules are:-

No starting to eat food until everyone had their plate in front of them.
No eating with mouths open.
No elbows on tables.
Do not cut flood with a fork, that's what a knife is for.
Cutlery is not to be held like pencils.
Don't reload fork until you fishing chewing what you already have in your mouth.
Don't stretch across someone else for salt/pepper/condiments, ask for them to be passed.
Forks are not to be used as spoons.
When finished a meal forks and knives are placed side by side in he middle of the plate.

My teens managed to stick to the rules. Some of their friends were a different matter though . If they had friends over teens and friends ate before DH and I to avoid us having to watch some of them eat.

YABU and if you keep demanding stuff you will turn your kids away when they are older.
It will have the opposite effect and they'll eat like pigs and their oh will be ashamed of them
You have done your bit, let them be.

Which are thenunreasonable rules?

Take a chill pill. Your son is right. They should be able to relax at home.

My only real rules are:

1. Don't use your phone at the table.
2. Remember to say please and thank you.
3. Chew with your mouth closed.

I have never understood why elbows on the table is considered rude. I think it is antiquated. To me it is a very natural thing to do, and provided you don't lean in and have your back to any person sitting next to you then I see no problem.

I don't do back straight either. To me that would be very uncomfortable.

I have never heard of not reloading your fork whilst still chewing. In fact, my parents used to actively instruct us to refill our forks as soon as we had put the previous forkful in our mouths.

It is perfectly possible to be relaxed at home and yet know how to behave when in different company, in a posh restaurant or if the situation otherwise demands it. That is what I have aimed for with my lot. I seem to have succeeded, more or less.

I guess I am no Hyacinth Bucket. To be honest, it was enough of a struggle getting my middle daughter to eat without causing a scene about it anyway. Adding all of your rules in would just have turned mealtimes into all out war. Instead, I chose to relax and ignore her outbursts, and that way they got fewer and further between.

We have similar rules here. Not necessarily sitting with your back straight, because I can't do that!

DS1(20) has been living on an Army camp now for 8 months. One of his pet hates is that a lot of the others have awful table manners, they can't use a knife and fork properly, don't close their mouths when they eat, slurp and chomp noisily, and take their mouths to the food not the other way round. It puts him off his food.

DS2(18) said they did something at school the other day about eating and mealtimes and he was one of only 2 in a class of 20 who are expected to eat with the family, at the table. I think that is quite sad, tbh.

Hakuykt, you little shit-stirrer!

Rules 2 and 5 are unreasonable. Number 2 is antiquated and not conducive to a good dinner party; Number 5 is not necessarily bad either but more about controlling appetite than having good manners.

Rule 3 is also unreasonable unless dining at a packed table.

Are you happy now that someone has answered?

Lots of posters are querying the 'don't refill your fork etc' rule - but I think if you watch most people ( with some semblance of nice manners) eat, this is the way they eat. It's not conscious, but it means not shovelling your food in! My DS does not get this at all, he will shovel his food in as fast as he can given the chance, and I am trying to train him not to refill his fork until he has finished what is in his mouth. It's not really a victorian rule, I think most people just do it naturally.

May I ask, if you don't refill your fork until you have finished chewing, what you do with your hands and cutlery in between mouthfuls?

It must be such a tense atmosphere though, meal times should be a time to sit round the the table and relax with the family after a long day. I'm all for table manners but I think you might just be over doing it a bit.

"Number 2 is antiquated and not conducive to a good dinner party"

Why do you need your elbows on the tAble while you eat for a good dinner party

I seem to be on the old fashioned end of the table manners police in that I think the fork goes in the left hand, knife and spoon in the right, and I expect children to use both knife and fork.

I don't insist on elbows off the table or straight backs, but I do expect them basically to face the table and not sit halfway off their chair or with their legs tucked up under their bums. The not filling the fork thing has never crossed my mind.

In general, though, I do think it reasonable for you to set whatever manners you feel are appropriate. Some parents are stricter with table manners, others with clothes, phone use, whatever. None of these define a child's enjoyment of life. I went to boarding school and the rules there were very strict but it didn't stop the conversation. People forever railing against the rules might have done, though, I suppose. Maybe you could "give them a break" as your DS suggests, but by relaxing the odd meal completely (eg tv dinner) rather than by changing your day to day rules.

mrsrhodgilbert May I ask, if you don't refill your fork until you have finished chewing, what you do with your hands and cutlery in between mouthfuls?

I normally rest my hands on the table at the sides of my plate, or take a drink.

the point of having rules at home is PRECISELY to make them second nature so you don't have to think about them everyday or when you have a special occasion (when we are usually nervous and self conscious)

Our rules

No books, phones, computers or other nick nacks at the table while you are eating

No inhaling food. I hate hate hate this.

Chew with mouth closed

Lean over so you don't slop anything. Sit reasonably sensibly, no straight back needed but turn your body and sit not recline.

Ask others if they would like seconds before helping yourself to the last or almost last of anything

Waiting until everyone is served

Ask someone politely to pass you something... and if asked to pass something that you have not already helped yourself to, do not serve yourself before passing it, wait.

Thank those that prepared your food

Excuse yourself before leaving the table unless all are finished

Not leaving the table between courses. Go to the toilet before you eat so it is less likely to be needed during the meal.

You rules do not sound like they would inspire a lovely relaxed but sensible family meal. I would find them rigid.

Never heard of the not filling your fork one. I have one who is a very slow eater. Every meal would take several hours if we enforced that.

What about suggesting a compromise. You have a formal sit down meal once a week so they can practise their manners and have a more relaxed set of rules the rest of the week.

Or perhaps eat with your rules during the week but that they can relax on weekends unless you have company...?

I'm with you OP and others. Like Selfconfessed also.

I was brought up similarly and bad table manners make me wince.

We don't have a dining table or flat is to small I still did table manners though when they were younger they had a plastic table anyway mine are don't shovel in close ypur mouth when you are eating and put your knife and for together when you are finished I don't have and specific cutlery eating rules eat how you are comfortable as long as there is no shoveling in .anyway we all have our own rules don't we but when you are constantly nagging then the meal can't be enjoyable and its just a stressful chore.

My rules

Mouth closed
Don't talk with your mouth full
No drink slurping