To still demand perfect table manners? (teenagers)

[ShaynePunim]

Not sure who's BU - me or my kids.

They're 14 and 12. My mealtimes rules have always been:

1. Back straight
2. No elbows on the table.
3. Elbows tucked in.
4. Bring cutlery to mouth, not the other way around.
5. No reloading of fork while still chewing previous mouthful.

There are other rules I'm sure but those are the ones I constantly have to fight about!

This is the way I have been brought up but as far as I can remember my parents never had to fight for it, by the time I was 5 or so it had been drilled into me and now it would take me an actual EFFORT to eat all slouched down with my elbows on the table etc.

So I don't understand why it's such a bloody struggle to get my kids to eat like civilised human beings!

My argument is that manners are very important and I want them, when they are adults, to be able to feel comfortable and confident in any environment, and not behave like Neanderthals.

I also find it unpleasant to have to watch them eat slouched down.

My 14 y.o. is OK...whenever I say 'sit up straight' or 'elbows in', she just does it.

My 12 y.o. argues with me over it! His arguments are: 1. we are at home so they should be allowed to relax and feel comfortable and not be harassed. 2. Manners are important but I don't realise that they (my kids) already have much better manners than most kids they know so I should give them a break. 3. He thinks I am showing poor manners by criticizing them! (But I point out I am not merely criticizing for the sake of it, I am bringing them up!).

So anyway, AIBU?

I would LIKE to give them a break (it's not bloody fun for me!), only if someone could reassure me that I have sown the seeds of good manners already and if they ever get invited to tea by the Queen they'll be just fine.

But I'm scared of letting go and failing them by not ensuring they are well brought up.

1. and 4. are reasonable rules, 3. is borderline and a bit pointless unless at a packed table but 1. and 5. are just ridiculous and 5. is just such a time waster and just OTT, there's no need at all.

DD and I have tea on the couch, she has perfect table manners when at school camp, MiL's etc.

OP your mealtimes sound utterly miserable.

If you are in a position where you are "constantly having to fight"- then you are doing a crap job at parenting.

BringMeTea Oh many people believe you are, elbows should never be on the table, some people are accepting enough to if you're still at the dinner table after all the food has gone and you're just drinking coffee/brandy then you might be able to lean an elbow on the table if you're particularly rakish.

I've always wondered how the straight backed dictated people have romantic dinners, the etiquette for those is to lean in close etc...

I don't understand the argument that people should be able to relax at home. None of the rules are difficult to follow, or intrinsically make a meal less enjoyable, so there is no reason to have different rules in different contexts.

Following rules need to be habitual. Just like a driver signals even when he "knows" there is no-one there to see it, someone eating completely alone at home would still follow the rules they deem important. As doing so is a habit, it costs them nothing.

What makes the rules problematic is the fact that they are not yet habitual, the children need to concentrate, and be reminded. Once compliance is a habit, the rules will no longer be a problem, for anyone.

One can argue what the rules should be, but once they've been defined, they should be rigorously enforced. The purpose of nagging during a given meal is not to gain compliance during that meal, it is to establish a habit. Every time they are allowed to get away with breaking a rule prolongs the painful learning period, and delays the date when they will costlessly do things the right way.

(I am making the assumption that it is ultimately possible to get them to comply, if not it might be better to surrender early!)

Thank you all for posting. The consensus seems that I ought to try and relax a little and the world won't collapse if I do... I guess I was seeking reassurance that it was ok to let go a little...thank you. :) And we did have a nice dinner last night and breakfast this morning, I only asked my daughter once to sit properly, which she did, but didn't comment on anything else and it was all pretty jolly. And it's true that that's what I want them to remember later, rather than me having a go about elbows and backs!

To those who asked, no of course I don't expect anyone else (child or adult) to abide by any rules when eating at my house! I do enjoy having friends (and friends of the kids') for dinner, and I wouldn't dream of commenting on how they eat...but then it's not my job to bring these people up!

To the poster who called me a crap parent...I think that was unkind and unnecessary. I hope no one ever says that to you if you have doubts one day.

I too think the OP's rules are too strict and she needs to relax, but telling someone who is clearly anxious that she is 'doing a crap job at parenting' is neither helpful nor kind, is it now? Nor do you even know it's true as this is just one tiny snapshot of her relationship with her kids. Why be so nasty?

X post - Good for you, Shayne.

"slurping was considered good manners back then!"

No it wasn't.

I remember meal times as a teenager with horror. They were not fun at all and consisted of my dad barking "no elbows at the table" etc etc. By that time we knew how to behave but his insistence on these manners completely ruined meals for me.

I would far rather he'd relaxed more.

Slurping noodles/spaghetti is still considered good manners in most far east cultures I believe. Eating them silently would be rude to your hosts.

Manners are so often used to defend casual racism...

Good to hear Shayne.

Actually I don't think it's the "rules" that are the problem, but HOW they are enforced. If they're rigidly enforced to the point that a person is interrupted in the middle of telling something interesting about their day by "elbows off the table", then it's gone too far. Or if "conversation" at the dinner table consists of arguing about manners/chastising children about manners all the time and nothing else, then it's also gone too far. I believe that learning the art of what I call 'polite conversation' over the dinner table is also good manners, and is far more important than whether an elbow touches the table at times.

I began to hate my ex for the way he was at mealtimes. We all walked on eggshells around him and his enforcement of manners. It was dreadful, and actually, I think, a really good example of bad manners - how to make people feel really uncomfortable at the dinner table - which I think should be a nice time for families to discuss their days/issues/plan their weekend/whatever.

I have also read that slurping has been considered good manners in the past as it showed enjoyment.

Agree totally Hmmm2014.

There's something horrible about always shouting and enforcing manners in your children it reminds me of how we are now NOT supposed to treat our dogs. It is far worse than having a child accidentally slurp (or an adult). It's demeaning and humiliating for the children.

You no doubt love your children but they won't feel it ,it's not a loving way to behave. It's more for you than them IMO.

"Slurping noodles/spaghetti is still considered good manners in most far east cultures I believe. Eating them silently would be rude to your hosts.

Manners are so often used to defend casual racism..."

The posted concerned said "back then" not "in that culture". No racism involved. Not sure much spaghetti is consumed in the"Far East"..........

Hakluyt Lots, you're not doing a great job of convincing me your obsession with a particular set of cultural manners isn't rooted in casual racism.

"Hakluyt Lots, you're not doing a great job of convincing me your obsession with a particular set of cultural manners isn't rooted in casual racism."

Good thing I know that's bollocks, then, isn't it?

Shayne - IMO your reply is a model of graciousness.

There's nothing like posting about manners or being considerate to elicit a slew of posts claiming that the OP is uptight, no fu', old-fashioned, repressed, Victorian, sanctimonious, a bad-parent whose DC will rebel on a grand scale and behave in the opposite way to their upbringing......

Undoubtedly some of these are defensive.

If it's any help to you - my advice as someone who puts a lot of importance on good manners - is that straight backs, no-reloading while chewing and no elbows are probably a bit old-fashioned. I find it difficult not to put my elbows on the table - or one elbow on the table sometimes - not actually while eating though - I'm a very slow eater and I would feel awkward if I was eating somewhere, doing that and realised that my manners were considered to be lacking. But everyone has their priorities. Teenagers make you decide which are your most important priorities - pick your battles and all that.

Lots of noodles are consumed in the Far East. Singapore in particular is quite big on it. There were loads of noodle dishes at the open air food fairs there when we spent part of our honeymoon there (far too many years ago now).

Chinese do use them sometimes too, and I think Japanese.

OP you are NOT a crap parent. I saw that remark earlier in the thread and thought it was bang out of order. All that needed saying was relax a little and be a bit less formal.

Glad to see that is what you are now trying to do. It will be much more enjoyable for all of you to allow some leeway at the table within reason. Just tell them that there is a time and a place etc. Home is for relaxing, but in plush restaurants etc. or if hosting a posh dinner party then we all have to be more attentive.

Disclaimer - I don't host dinner parties. That would be my idea of hell.

There's manners and then there's etiquette. Only ill-mannered people would comment on a failure to follow the rules of etiquette IMO.

But what a disadvantage it must be if you go somewhere for a long gathering round a large meal and feel uncomfortable because you realise that the habits you have are at odds with the more considerate habits of your fellow diners, such as passing things round, waiting for other people to get their meal before you start - unless the cook requests that people start lest their food go cold - eating quietly to avoid irritating the others at the table who might have difficulties with chomping or slurping sounds.

It's good to teach children table manners....but only to a certain degree, I'd hate to think of a child trying so hard not to draw criticism from his mother, because of her insistence on good manners, that he doesn't feel relaxed enough to talk about his day. Once the flow of conversation is interrupted its hard to get back to it, or just can't be bothered. Id hate to be told years down the line that I totally spoiled mealtimes because of my strict enforcement of manners. It could also be seen as rude to interrupt someone when they're speaking imo, a habit that could easily be copied. The art of good conversation round a dinner table is also a good skill to pass on to children, but this could so easily be stifled by a tense atmosphere at the table.

Hak you beat me to it.... rewriting the OP's rules etc. Sounds normal to me too!
I think rule 5 also relates to loading up your fork and then waving it around.

It's also an easy thing for stroppy teenagers to use as a wind-up mum thing. Hence the advice to pick your battles

DS always concludes a meal walking out of the room with an enormous belch. Drives DH nuts. I don't know why but it doesn't bother me. My brother was the same. DS certainly wouldn't do it in front of granny.
Low standards here.

Claybury, I can guarantee that your dil will be on Mumsnet in 20 years time raging at the awful manners "his mum" taught him, and how disgusting his belches are..........

or a wind-up dad thing.

My grandfather was very proper and very English and he sipped his soup off the spoon which IMO makes a slurping sound, although it's probably not very loud. I on the other hand liked to put the spoon of soup in my mouth, making no noise at all. I was told this was bad manners - spoon at the wrong angle pedantism.

He drank his soup just like the woman in this video

My grandmother made a different type of home made soup every night, something that amazed me when I visited in the holidays.