to think that woman on the jubilee line is a plain racist

[casusally]

Listening to LBC today and lots of people where saying she did nothing racist saying "you guys used to be slaves". I'm glad the police are taking this seriously. Warning offensive video

www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/woman-comes-forward-after-racist-rant-video-shot-on-jubilee-line-line-train-10049662.html

candidkate

From the information we have given her response to him, yes she turns out to be racist but to come to that conclusion before that was said is a fallacy. It could easily be said that she said it because he touched her in an inappropriate way (but that would be an assumption based on no facts).

So lets go with Occam's razor unfortunately what we think is the obvious answer is different.

Can I add- unless I’m wrong and a longer version exists- the clip comes in after the woman has said accessed comment to the man not to shove her. So we didn't actually hear either what she said, or how aggressively he was being. Id guess, given his completely lack of respect towards women and his very direct/.in your face. Threatening words and body language displaying he clearly lacks any Spatial awareness, he may well have been invading her space, which resulted in her asking him to stop doing so. I regularly ask men and women of every race (but usually white, male, middle class, middle aged idiots as it happen) to please not shove into me, or respond by just getting my bag/scarf and shoving it in their face/back as a divider between us, accompanied with a very evil look (oooh!) as they look at me- this usually does the trick.

I once recently on SW Trains was actually grabbed, and shaken by a man who refused to budge over in his seat, and when I took the empty seat next to him and squeezed onto it, pushing him along into his rightful space, he said “excuse me love, stop shoving me” I then said “well if you didn’t sit with your legs miles apart and moved onto your seat I wouldn’t have to” he then responded by calling me a “F’ing bitch”, grabbing and shaking me. I was utterly dumbstruck and so shocked I actually just sat there, tears welling up for my 15min journey as 10s of other commuters stared in equal shock but didn’t do a thing (bear in mind this was a packed south west train service at 5.30pm- and said horrible man (middle aged corduroy trousers wearing ) was hardly a hoodie likely to pull a knife out if they had done something). 1month later I still kick myself for not speaking- no shouting out in response to him, so in a way I respect this woman for standing her ground (different scenario I Know).

Being on transport in London is exasperating and when tensions arise stupid comments are made, I still do not think she is clearly a racist but I do think she shouldn’t have gone there re. slavery and he shouldn't have become so irate. Both wrong and silly. That’s it.

BoneyBackJefferson

I agree - there is no evidence of her racism before she made the racist comment.

All i'm saying - and perhaps I'm not being clear so sorry - is that it's not preposterous in today's society for a black man on the packed London Underground to feel as though there are racist/xenophobic undertones to "don't touch me" when she has obviously been shoved and prodded and pushed all morning.

It's just not a normal thing to say on The Tube!! People say "don't shove" "wait your turn" etc etc but not "don't touch me" in the manner in which she did when we all expect to be touched.

People say "don't shove" "wait your turn" etc etc but not "don't touch me" in the manner in which she did

You have no idea what manner she used, nor what her tone was like.

In fact, in the video, she denies even saying it.

Candidkate

"is that it's not preposterous in today's society for a black man on the packed London Underground to feel as though there are racist/xenophobic undertones to "don't touch me" when she has obviously been shoved and prodded and pushed all morning."

I agree with the first part but there is nothing to suggest the second.

He may have felt that, he may have thought "how dare she talk to me that way", neither you or I know how he felt or what prompted his response.

My feeling is that what he said has underlying racist overtones, yours it that it was a valid response to a non normal thing to say.

TBF, we are not discussing that they are dicks (or whatever) we seem to be arguing the grading of the dick.

From what I can tell the notion that the man is racist is because it is assumed he would not have raised skin colour with someone not white. But others have stated there a massive underbelly of intra ethnic and black on black racism. So I think on that basis you can assume this guy launched into one because she was white.
Just to caveat
He could have started because he is rude or because there was something that occurred before the tape or because he has racist views.

No one actually knows what happened before the tape or what he was thinking.

But we do know that her response was racist.

And yet posters are really invested in the man being racist too...

As for London underground I now walk and bus where ever possible. People are too volatile and I sweat my make up off underground

TBF, we are not discussing that they are dicks (or whatever) we seem to be arguing the grading of the dick

I think this just about sums it up for me.

Should say you cannot assume that he launched into one because she was white

It's clearly wrong for the police to be involved. She shouldn't be punished for making a racist comment, after all we wouldn't want people to punish us for making a non-racist comment. Allow people to make fools of themselves making racist remarks because it just makes it easier for the rest of us to know what to avoid. And freedom of speech, while it DOES have a few limits, should not censor offensive opinions or discriminatory ones, only backward countries living in an outdated era would do that.

And yet posters are really invested in the man being racist too...

I don't think "invested" is the quite the right word. For me, I have zero interest in this except as an academic discussion (of course, had I been involved or a witness, I would begin to have investment in it). From afar and in dinner table debate, it's an intriguing incident that highlights both the ugly explicit racism of a white person and the (perhaps, not everyone agrees) more subtle, subconscious, racism of a black person. Nothing more, nothing less.

Tbh this thread has weeded out those who were invested and I think we are having a nice intellectual conversation now. But initially it felt like a herd necessity to write this off as two racist dicks having an argument.

whodrankmycoffee Tbh this thread has weeded out those who were invested and I think we are having a nice intellectual conversation now. But initially it felt like a herd necessity to write this off as two racist dicks having an argument.

Sorry, what?! The "weeding out" you refer to in my case is a job, ie work, which prevented me spending all day on the internet not conforming to whatever tactic you are using now. Has it seriously never occurred to you that someone might have to go out to work?!

CandidKate without wishing to be accused of calling you playground names again, I am incredulous that someone can pass an LLB and have no knowledge of the rule of law (or the dangers of mob rule) or the concepts of direct and indirect discrimination. never mind that you think that you get the definition of racism from a dictionary not legislation or a case and its something that its better to make up on the spot

This thread has turned into a bit of a bully-fest for those who want to impose their views on others, so I have said what I needed to in order to make my point, and I CBA with internet point scoring. I suspect I'm not the only one repelled by the constant racist comments. Don't want anything to do with it. Congratulations on whatever it is you mistakenly think you are achieving.

What are talking about I am working too. Albeit slowly.

Weeding out referred to people posting once and having no interest in the evolution of the thread.

Chandler interesting that I am apparently part of a bullying group I thought we discussing ideas and opinions. But clearly I am wrong. Thank you for graciously setting me right.

TheChandler Here it goes agaaaain. Get a life. Where have I proven to have no knowledge of the rule of law. The law is irrelevant to the points that I have made because I am speaking about racism as an ideology not as a hate act please pay attention.Law and legislation are two different things. Why are you bringing up "cases" how much TV do you watch. We all know what is illegal pertaining to racism why do you keep on bringing it up? What have i said that's so ignorant? This isn't school where if you disagree with someone you automatically call them dumb. This is mumsnet not meangirlsnet please calm down you are the only one being nasty / sarcastic / domineering.
If you bring someone home of a certain race and after they leave your mum bleaches down the house saying nigger this nigger that you can't call the police on her nor are her actions illegal but they are still racist. I don't understand why you keep on bringing the law to me as though its a relevant response to anything I have said.
Now you are incredulous that I studied for an LLB and have no knowledge of the rule of law I'm telling you I've spat coffee all over my desk love - again I'm not out here to out my self but i assure you i know the rule of law
Now bugger off TheChandler I'm sure you're a nice person but you've had an apology, have been spoken to with respect and continue to stomp your feet like a child. You wont hear another peep from me sorry.

People are concentrating an awful lot on the 'don't touch me' thing, given that in the video she denies she even said it. In fact she was calmly saying to him 'why are you shouting at me?' as he was ranting at her about not wanting to be around 'people like her'.

Of course, she then opened her mouth and out came a rather nasty racist remark and so she lost any moral high ground that she may have had.

so I read this on gov uk website on indirect discrimination

indirect discrimination - putting rules or arrangements in place that apply to everyone, but that put someone with a protected characteristic at an unfair disadvantage

how can someone pull someone up on indirect discrimination when it is just a feeling, a look they get, something they pick up on

all the laws can be in place but to not acknowledge that the law at times does not prevent or deal with discrimination is not acknowledging that people are often silenced by so called laws that support them

its a change in attitude that needs to be in place as this thread I feel has proved

and as what is racism about this there is the definition in the dictionary and then there is what has played out in history that has defined what racism is about in our society and that is one race having power and the power to discriminate against other races

'Its not acceptable to go around accusing people of being racist just because you feel like it. There was nothing racist about the entire conversation until that one remark she made, much, much later.'

I agree with that. I think he used the racist card as a weapon - and she took issue with that. Fair play.

ChristyMooreRocks You don't need to shout to say horrid things, and to be quite frank I know I can't presume to know him but he is clearly reacting to something. Of course he isn't reacting well that goes without saying I'm not justifying his actions at all. But just because in the clip she is acting all innocent doesn't mean she is. She seems to think its okay to say don't touch me and is horrified that he objects. If someone told me not to touch them on the packed London underground i wouldn't kick off but I'd tell them to pipe down and if they don't want to be shoved they can say excuse me like a civilized human being. What would you do if you nudged pass your husband in the kitchen and he said "don't touch me" instead of "careful honey". It's not a harmless or connotation-less thing to say to anyone

Inkanta Fair play to her racism?

Fair play to the man who rapes a woman because she flirted with him in the pub.
Fair play to the mother who hits her child black and blue because he/he wont stop crying.
Fair play to the pedophile school teacher who engages in a sex act with a 12 year year student that has a crush on him.

Some of you lot are sick and clearly think racism is okay or on par with rudeness.

She seems to think its okay to say don't touch me and is horrified that he objects.

No she doesn't because she denied saying it at all.

ChristyMooreRocks The witnesses all said she did I see no reason for them to lie for that horrid man!

in any case no one should speak to anyone the way they both spoke to one another.

Inkanta what do you mean that he used a racist card?

Blimey at your reactions! This was 2 people having a row - both as bad as each other. She shouldn't have shouted 'don't touch me', he shouldn't have used the racist card, and she shouldn't have used the 'slave' card. Both aggressive and both as bad as each other.

Candidkate - calm down, good lord!