to think that woman on the jubilee line is a plain racist

[casusally]

Listening to LBC today and lots of people where saying she did nothing racist saying "you guys used to be slaves". I'm glad the police are taking this seriously. Warning offensive video

www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/woman-comes-forward-after-racist-rant-video-shot-on-jubilee-line-line-train-10049662.html

I referred to it as prejudice name calling (although on second paragraph I did not use the word prejudice in before it is c&p)

I questioned how racism impacts white people in their everyday life

MaidOfStars I wasn’t clear with what I said sorry I can see how it looks contradictory. I meant that just because she made a “slave” comment as opposed to using more aggressive language doesn’t mean that she’s not racist.

In terms of his actions all I mean is that there is no evidence verbally or physically that he is racist. There is no evidence that she is racist up until she made a racist comment.

I do not think that “don’t touch me” is a racist comment semantically, and if she left it at that I don’t think there would be much debate. She went on to refer to slavery etc…. that’s racist.

Just like there are women who are sexist towards men. Does have any impact on the lives of most men? No.

Whereas the sexist views held by some men have a massive impact on women throughout society, because it's prejudice and power combined.

There is no evidence that she is racist up until she made a racist comment

So how do you explain the man's actions up to that point? How do you explain the accusations and the anger and the aggression? Do you think, to that point, it was unjustified and unfair?

The man is entitled to his feelings he could have perceived that she was being hostile to him. He could be having a rough day. He could just be an arse. But none of that justifies her racist comment. You cannot provoke racist abuse from a non racist.

You can insert whatever ist you want into the above statement.
And the same still applies.

Thanks – IPityThePontipines I just cannot believe the reluctance from some people on here to condemn this woman. At best people seem obsessed with outlining how he was aggressive and a bastard before / after saying she was wrong.

I've said several times that it doesn't need to be a game of where its "them" and "us" and if "we" admit "we" have done something wrong then "they" have another point in this made up game of racist ping pong.

I've put to posters several times that racism, like rape, or paedophilia, or sexism, is not something where being provoked should be mentioned or seen as justifiable cause. And when rape, or paedophilia, or sexism is justified – it’s met with outrage and disgust, not maybe this maybe that. But alas and unsurprisingly, no one has gotten back to me on that point.

If a woman came on here saying “I wore a mini skirt and flirted with a man all night and he raped me” Anyone who said to her “well you provoked him” would have their comments reported and they would be set upon to the high heavens. Everyone would be outraged that someone could suggest such a thing.

If she said “maybe I brought it on myself…..was it even rape?” everyone would be mortified and mumsnetters would sweep to her aide reassuring her that nothing justifies rape and it’s disgusting and there is nothing to ummm or ahhh about. There are no if, buts, or maybes pertaining to rape, paedophilia or sexism so why racism. It just seems like some people seem to think that admitting it exists is like saying “white people are the most evil horrid scum on earth and we owe black people our lives and 1000000 years of apologies” which is not the bloody case. They want to be treated like normal human beings and not have bloody Scarlet O’Hara type figures bring up the fact they are different, blatantly or indirectly, at every damn opportunity. Everyone’s race has it’s rude, violent, nasty, sick and demented bad eggs, why is this man’s race relevant to the fact he shoved her?

And why was she so repulsed by him when she is for the millionth time – on one of the busiest travel systems in the world. I’m positive she was shoved on the escalator, upon trying to get through the barriers, upon walking down the platform etc and didn’t bug out. As for other people stepping in don't even get me started on that. She has the balls to tell someone dont touch me and call them a slave but she needs people sticking up for her ? I cant deal. Poor her.

If she didn't have racist views, the way she reacted would have been different.

He was rude and jostled her.
She replied in a racist manner.
Neither very nice ... just goes to show there are many situations without a good/bad binary. Sometimes unpleasant people argue with others who are unpleasant in a different way and there is no "right" one.

You cannot provoke racist abuse from a non racist. That is it in a nutshell.

The man is entitled to his feelings he could have perceived that she was being hostile to him. He could be having a rough day. He could just be an arse
Yep, but he accused her of being racist. That's a terrible thing to say to someone, and something I think in itself was racially-motivated. And did you watch the video - he was shouting, name-calling, bullying, aggressive. That's not excused by "having a bad day".

But none of that justifies her racist comment
Agreed. Nobody has tried to use it in justification.

You cannot provoke racist abuse from a non racist
Well, I actually disagree, but it's a technicality, one alluded to earlier and doesn't necessarily reference this incident. The MacPherson report made it clear that racism exists where someone (anyone, not just the victim) perceives racism. Intention means nothing. That means that abuse considered racist (ergo, racist abuse) can issue from a non-racist, if someone witnessing perceives it as racist. Therefore, racism is subjective.

He was rude and jostled her. She replied in a racist manner

That's not what happened. Watch the video.

I was talking in terms of the sum of things done wrong on each side - not a chronological blow for blow report.
And of course there's the subjective nature of "rude" etc.

So what. Let's assume it's binary she did something subtle that set him off and therefore he is justified and yet still an aggressive arse. What if she did nothing and he was aggressive arse still.

What difference does it actually make ... It was her response that was at issue.

Black and white people are entitled to believe an interaction was racist in the same way I can perceive that an event was sexist. I do not need a group of men to Co sign on my feelings. If I am wrong I am wrong but unless I have the power as I said in previous posts to tprevent someone from getting a job for example. So what.

Hurt feelings are just that. Why are her hurt feelings more important than his feelings.is she a more sympathetic victim....

"Why are her hurt feelings more important than his feelings."

They are not but then his are no more important than hers

"is she a more sympathetic victim"

No they are both dicks.

The issue appears to be that one is a racist whilst the other has posters justifying his actions.

MaidOfStars - so what if he called her racist so what if he was nasty so what so what so what so what being an asshole does not justify racism so why is it being brought up over and over again and if you aren't using it to justify her racism then why is it being mentioned. Anyone with eyes can he is a prick.

I disagree I think only one post has given him anything close to a pass. Everyone else has said that the man was rude and aggressive but not a racist because we are all entitled to our feelings I think in our capacity as individuals who cannot use those feelings with any additional powers we might have through authority or whatever.

The last few pages are questioning why mn as a rule struggles to accept that in a scenario white or privileged person X was racist in their action or words.
That doesn't prevent their victim being awful or rude. But in any case I am yet to remember pages and pages of a thread telling an op that sexist or disabilist event that happened them was provoked by them and as such you are equally bad as your abuser and probably overly sensitive to boot.

It just does not happen and posters flag up this discrepancy we are presented with laundry list of issues. .
Racism is a serious accusations
Your tone is wrong
I don't believe you are interpreting this correctly
Someone once said X to me therefore my opinion is right.

Why dows mn accept sexism and disabilism as nasty stuff that happens in a cross section of places and move on why do we have page after page essentially saying this is just a nasty spat between nasty people and it's not racism and big black man was quite scary so it doesn't matter if the slight was real or perceived

FYI I still say he is an arse

MaidOfStars - so what if he called her racist
It's a horrible thing to say - a truly disgusting, hurtful accusation - and I feel (my "vibe") that he wouldn't have said it to a black girl. Therefore, in my opinion, he delivered a shocking sets of insults in an aggressive and threatening manner based on the skin colour of the girl. That's racist. And to accuse someone of being racist while you yourself are (perhaps inadvertently) being racist means you don't hold any moral high ground.

if you aren't using it to justify her racism then why is it being mentioned
There are two very separate and clear incidences of racism at play here (in my opinion). His is subtle, maybe subconscious. Hers was blatant. Neither negates the other, neither justifies the other.

The fact that hers is pretty clear cut means it isn't getting much attention on this thread. Don't let that fool you into thinking that anyone is trying to minimise it. She was racist, end of. There's no nuance, no defence, no discussion to be had.

whodrankmycoffee

There are quite a few posts stating that she must have done something
She must have said something
It was the way she said it
Its the underground she should be used to it.

(paraphrased)

Nothing excuses what he said and nothing excuses what she said.

Buy that's the point he saw something in the interaction that was racist and you won't allow him the right to that feeling.

Let's say he is a garden variety arse and the woman had been black he would probably have said you think you are better than me all uppity etc. How do I know. I am a black woman who takes the tube . Garden variety arse holes will perceive a slight from everyone and in the case of black on black the default I have found is the accusations of being uppity and thinking you are better. Which is a form of bigotry.
He would still be wrong but entitled to feel it anyway.
Just because racism is a harsh accusations doesn't means it's victims need to take a poll before being entitled to feel it. Like I said no one's feelings trump anyone's here

I think that is the problem with short video clips we don't know.
I am judging on what we do know.

A knock between two people on tube
An extreme rude reaction
A racist rant

Everyone is trying to fill in the gaps to justify their own point of view.

whodrankmycoffee
"Buy that's the point he saw something in the interaction that was racist and you won't allow him the right to that feeling."

The counter point is that you don't know what he felt, it is supposition and excusing his actions.

whodrankmycoffee

Of course its a serious accusation,but seriously, so what? In this context he was not wrong. She proceeded to prove she was racist.

I do not condone people accusing others of racism with no evidence and no motive as though its a card that can be pulled out when you feel like it. This accusation, when false, can really hurt feelings. But hurt feelings over being called racist, and hurt feelings (or broken limbs and dead lynched family members) because of actual racism are two different things. Racism and being a prick are not and par and many of these posts seem to take that stance. It's sickening.

It seems that two horrid people crossed paths!!! That's fine!!

"Are you looking at my breasts" Is a serious accusation so i suppose its okay for the man to just go ahead and fondle them? Of course not.. And again, no one would say "Why isn't anyone talking about the fact that she made a serious accusation"

No I have said he might have sensed some thing or he is just an arse. And when you encounter an arse you can be an arse yourself or withdraw or you can be sexist/racist / disabilist in your response. We all have that choice and pp have tried to suggest it was just one arse facing off against another. I think it was more than that even if the trigger was nothing at all.

Totally agree with candid