to think that woman on the jubilee line is a plain racist

[casusally]

Listening to LBC today and lots of people where saying she did nothing racist saying "you guys used to be slaves". I'm glad the police are taking this seriously. Warning offensive video

www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/woman-comes-forward-after-racist-rant-video-shot-on-jubilee-line-line-train-10049662.html

Again, 'coloured' people....

I'm afraid that it rather distracts from your arguments.

distracts/detracts

MaidOfStars I said "some" and even put they it in bold. Just saying, not being cheeky.

Some, not all, people will do anything to avoid admitting racism because they see everything as "them" and "us" and if "we" admit that "we" have done something wrong then "they" get a point.

MaidOfStars

Whats wrong with the term colored people? DO YOU PRESUME TO TELL ME BLACK PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY BLACK LIKE THE UGGS I WORE YESTERDAY? What's really racist?

Candidkate and Creighton can I ask you what it is that you are actually trying to achieve here?

Are you attempting to humiliate people who don't fall into your own little categories of favoured groups?

Are you trying to promote racial divisiveness?

Are you trying to force people into admitting something that you want them to, to make you feel better about something (in other words, are you trying to control people)?

I'm really suspicious that you are both trying to do all 3. You seem disinterested in proper debate, and to be absolutely full of your own self appointed importance to pronounce on what you perceive to be correct.

I find you both neither particularly correct, nor moral.

You said 'some' in direct reference to 'white people' (those who are 'uncomfortable'). It's clear that you intended to accuse the white people on this thread of being in the state of denial.

I pointed out that, assuming a reasonable and representaive demographic on this thread and given the range of opinion, that people, not just 'uncomfortable white people', are capable of recognising racism wherever it exists, whatever the colour/ethnicity of the person it issues from. I am not an 'uncomfortable white person' who is in denial about this woman's comments. I am also capable of seeing how the man's actions were racially-motivated.

Now you've changed your statement to just 'people'. Is that intentional and recognition that racism can come from any quarter and be directed against anyone, no skin colour/ethnicity excepted?

Not read this entire thread but - as the newspaper states - it is "an altercation between a woman and a man" on a train. Just that, an argument.

Two things come to mind.

1. Is this really a sensible use of police time - an argument between two adults?

2. If the report is accurate - did she or he say anything that was remotely a crime?

Or is it the case that this is simply a newspaper looking to fill its pages with rubbish?

'Coloured' is widely regarded as pejorative. It holds particular significance because of its use during segregation in the southern US, where 'equal but separate' was in full swing. Doors, water fountains, bus seats were labelled for 'coloureds'. I'm amazed you don't know this.

I honestly have no idea what the shouting is about or for.

candidkate You're beginning to ramble nonsense now: DO YOU PRESUME TO TELL ME BLACK PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY BLACK LIKE THE UGGS I WORE YESTERDAY? What's really racist?

Actually have no idea what that means. Wind up merchant, bored for the night?

He didnt call her racist because she was white. He called her racist because he felt like she was being racist.

Its not acceptable to go around accusing people of being racist just because you feel like it. There was nothing racist about the entire conversation until that one remark she made, much, much later.

As for you asking me for evidence - I wont be rude and copy and past the dictionary's definition of "racist", but as we are educated anglophiles, I think understanding the meaning of the word and applying it appropriately is all the evidence needed here.

Why on earth would you use a dictionary definition of racism, when we have laws that describe it correctly? And plenty of case law (which you would probably benefit from studying) giving real examples of racism.

Oh, and one further question - is this normal on London underground trains?

It's worse on Parisian ones, I hear...

TheChandler - despite you calling me names which i havent done to you or anyone here, I'm sorry if I've come across as a nasty person. I'm not at all but dont believe that racism should be held up to such scrutiny like its a mickey mouse topic.

You would not debate what rape is, or what sexism is, or what pedophilia is so why are we debating what racism is? Is whether someone is a pedophile subjective? Is killing someone for their mobile subjective?

Why is outrage at racism always met with such defense and scrutiny? Why is racism any less important than the other horrid things I've had to mention?

No one would post A 40 YEAR MAN SLEEPS WITH 12 YEAR OLD CHILD WHO TOLD HIM SHE LIKED HIM .... IS HE A PEDOPHILE??? and actually see debate in the thread. There would be no hmmm or ahhhh ing about it. There would be no "well she did provoke him...." talk going on. That's what bothers me about racism and how it is handled.

I'm just concise and believe what I believe. I've actually pointed out black people being racist to black people, black people being racist to white people, whites being racist to whites etc . I'm not slagging off whites at all.

Why am I not moral, despite me saying several times that its only some and not all white people who like to sweep racism under the rug?

Nothing I have said has has a hint of racial divisiveness. Funny how saying "some" white people always seems to get peoples knickers in a twist. It's okay to criticize and generalize black people and call them victims and accuse them of playing race cards, but when someone says "wait a moment....SOMETIMES....SOME white people do XYZ..." - in an obvious attempt to not generalize - and to not offend - they have no morals and want everyone to think like them.

You've asked me several questions and I have answered them TheChandler, thats not the same as wanting everyone to think like me. She said something bloody racist and its being justified over and over again. This is what i mean when i say there is SOMETIMES an issue here with discomfort / a lack of empathy when it comes to the darker people of the world and their issues.

I am white I do not feel I am in a state of denial or being accused of that because I am very aware that I am in a position where society has allowed me to own my identity and I have not had it projected as to how others will or should perceive me

but I have questioned myself and I do recognise that I do not know what it feels like to be racially abused or be in a position where I have to prove myself because of my colour and that makes me feel ashamed that so many do

being mixed race (though I look european) I have seen racism first hand directed at my family and they have not been aware I have also known people to be aware that they are being treated differently without any obvious action or a voiced opinion they just know they learn to recognise the signs and it is often harder to deal with that type of prejudice, how can you without difficulty but it is there to deny this is very much playing into white people know what's best for everyone else. it is something we often do not even recognise happens and we should it is not easy as it is uncomfortable because that is the way society is set up and our history has led to this

if we do not challenge these difficult questions things will never truly change

MaidOfStars and TheChandler I understand all of your points, but again, do not see why racism needs to be so subjective to the point of where people actually deem it feasible to say this man is racist too like its a tick for tack white vs black issue. He is an asshole and she is racist. Why does he have to be racist too as though we are playing tag you are it? I've answered all of your questions and have put several other prejudices to you in the same context and have received no response.
He cannot be racist (in terms of his actions, as i said I am not God) if he didn't bring up her race. He didn't say you are racist because you are white. That's racist and a horrid thing to say. Are you seriously using the whoever smelt it dealt it theory from primary school? That if someone accuses someone of doing something that they are that thing themselves?
I agree with everyone regarding him being aggressive and rude, but calling him racist too, as though its a silly word that we can just throw around is ridiculous.

Thank you FreudiansSlipper

This is all I am trying to say, I am not here to out myself but I am not racist, or here to make white people look like evil horrid people who hate admitting racism is real. I'm genuinly saying that they sometimes don't like admitting racism where it exists, OR, they treat racism as though it's banter, or a myth that's all. Many of the posts here have that tone to them....
There is something strange about someone suffer from racism, but the first thing you do, is make sure you write a paragraph on how he provoked her and how he is rude like that's relevant.
It reminds me of those disgusting judges who tell young girls that their skirt was too short, so they were asking to get raped.

Candidkate TheChandler - despite you calling me names which i havent done to you or anyone here

Immoral isn't a name, its an adjective, and I said that about you because I think you are trying to use a serious issue for many people to make that issue worse and to provoke. I don't think you have a valid aim.

You would not debate what rape is, or what sexism is, or what pedophilia is so why are we debating what racism is? Is whether someone is a pedophile subjective? Is killing someone for their mobile subjective?

Of course we debate what rape is! Its pretty much a debate which is in the newspapers on a weekly basis! Same goes for sexism. And certainly we need courts and lawyers and judges to decide on evidence. Its would hardly be acceptable to enforce some system of anarchy based on someone like Creighton's views of "its right because I say its right" and "arrogant white women".

Which is why I suggested you study proper case law on racism, and educate yourself more on the topic (since it obviously interests you, why wouldn't you do that?). We are fortunate to be governed by the rule of law, which means we have the legislative definition, we interpret that by case law, not by mob rule or by anarchy, or by people who just feel like having a rant.

I agree candidkate and the earnest need to defend this woman strikes me as misplaced at best.

Hi candidkate this is the normal path that threads about racism take on mumsnet. The white posters assume that they have the right to decide what is racist and black posters should not question them. There is always the desire to protect the poor helpless white person however despicable that person clearly is. White people must always set the agenda because the whole world is about them

TheChandler You seem far to eager on using what you think to be eloquent phrases and doodling around the question bringing in The Law etc than just being a normal relatable polite human being which is what mumsnet is all about. It's not about twisting peoples words, ignoring apologies and inferring that people are stupid.

Again - I'm not here to out myself, but I know plenty about the law. And I'm not a police woman, or a legal secretary, go figure. You say I'm here to humiliate people but you just pointed out that immoral is an adjective. Of course it is, but remember in primary school, if you called someone an idiot, it was referred to as name calling not adjective calling. Its just a figure of speech, a colloquial term if you will, so please don't be crude and infer I'm stupid.

Being racist isn't illegal, this thread isn't about whether or not the police should be involved. This post was about whether she was racist or not which she is. You don't need to bring up The Law and semantics to validate your point when this is just mumsnet. This is about normal everyday people having a chat - not about trying to feel superior because you can be bothered to type longer- and mostly irrelevant - words than everyone else can be bothered to. It's not about making assumptions like "maybe you should study it" when the person you are speaking to actually has. Again I'm not here to out myself.

Pay attention to what people are saying, and when they answer your question confidently and concisely, don't twist their words or accuse them of being domineering because they dont ummm or ahhh about a topic. I don't think anyone here on this thread is stupid or ignorant, I'm just genuinely shocked at the amount of excuses that are being made for this woman. I know the press debate rape and sexism all the time - I was talking about mumsnet as a community and how it reacts to certain topics. The mumsnet community would not speak about rape , or sexism , or pedophilia like they have nitpicked at racism in this thread.

creighton I dont think that all white people are like that, and I'm sure you don't either. I've seen all people of all colors be racist. Obviously the demographic of mumsnet will be mostly white so I'm not surprised of the tone taken on here sometimes, however when something is as simple or as blatant as this, I am disgusted at how even when it is plain to see, there is such a reluctance to admit its true. There is certainly a tone of white is right in a couple of peoples posts here. (Just to be clear i said peoples posts not the entire white races minds and hearts!)

candid

I have no idea what point you are making about use of 'some'. It certainly wasn't anything I object to, and didn't feature in any of my counter arguments.

He cannot be racist (in terms of his actions, as i said I am not God) if he didn't bring up her race
Do you think you can only be racist if you explicitly vocalise something about race?

calling him racist too, as though its a silly word that we can just throw around is ridiculous
I never throw the word 'racist' around - it's a disgusting thing to falsely accuse someone of.

I don't know which thread you've been reading but I haven't seen anyone defend what the woman said (although there has been discussion about intent/language issues). I definitely haven't seen anyone use the man's behaviour to justify what she did. So I think most of your ranting is irrelevant nonsense directed at your own straw man.

That guy was a total aggressive arsehole - it was him who initially brought race into it by calling her a racist with absolutely no grounds to do so, and you can bet to fuck that he wouldn't have done it if she hadnt been a lone woman. She says on the video that she didn't say 'don't touch me' so its possible that he was exaggerating on her reaction as well.

Prick.

The slavery comment was way out of line of course, however.

I really don't think this warrants a police investigation though.

TheChandler You seem far to eager on using what you think to be eloquent phrases and doodling around the question bringing in The Law etc than just being a normal relatable polite human being which is what mumsnet is all about. It's not about twisting peoples words, ignoring apologies and inferring that people are stupid.

Far too eager to use eloquent phrases, eh? Oh well then...

I think its tragic that you don't consider the law to be relevant, when its one of the main reasons this case has come to light.

candidkate Pay attention to what people are saying, and when they answer your question confidently and concisely, don't twist their words or accuse them of being domineering because they dont ummm or ahhh about a topic

As I say, I think you are suffering from a God complex. You don't have the ability to prescribe what people should and should not pay attention to. Or less eloquently, if you make up things as you go along and rant and rave, you tend to lose rather a high proportion of respect along the way.

What my aim is is to try and remain neutral and to comment on all available facts about this altercation, rather than just focus on one.

Can I ask you again, what is your aim here? What is it you are trying to do? Are you trying to control people?