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AIBU?

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Original poster

to think that woman on the jubilee line is a plain racist

328 replies

casusally · 16/02/2015 21:52

Listening to LBC today and lots of people where saying she did nothing racist saying "you guys used to be slaves". I'm glad the police are taking this seriously. Warning offensive video

www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/woman-comes-forward-after-racist-rant-video-shot-on-jubilee-line-line-train-10049662.html

OP posts:
worksallhours · 19/02/2015 13:11

eastern European gobshite

Hmm

Is this a good time to point out that the majority of slaves in the early Roman Empire were Slavs, and that is where the term "slave" actually originates?

And that slavic slaves were a significant proportion of slaves under the Ottoman Empire, and female slaves were still sold in the Ottoman empire as late as 1908?

And that the majority of Central and Eastern Europeans are of slavic ethnicities?

The notion that slavery is an experience distinctly suffered by African-heritage individuals of colour is misguided and very Western-centric. It also shows a lack of historical understanding of how other empires functioned in economic and labour terms.

I would also like to point out that, at present, there is a serious problem with poor Eastern European "white women" being sold and trafficked into sexual slavery across Europe and the Middle East.

People of colour do not "own" slavery as a historical and cultural collective experience.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 19/02/2015 13:13

There are two very separate and clear incidences of racism at play here (in my opinion). His is subtle, maybe subconscious. Hers was blatant. Neither negates the other, neither justifies the other

^^ This

GraysAnalogy · 19/02/2015 13:17

Power + Prejudice = Racism

No. It really doesn't. This gets trotted out every time. You can't change the definition of racism.

whodrankmycoffee · 19/02/2015 13:19

How can we be sure he would not have accused a black person of being uppity? Why are so many posters determined to net both their behaviours off even if it means stating that he was racist for daring to think she was being off with him because she was racist.

I don't know what he was thinking. But I find it interesting how important it is for posters to play up his racism and discount hers

TrueBlueYorkshire · 19/02/2015 13:25

The black gentlemen is out of line here, and also doing an excellent job of perpetuating most of the generalisations and preconceptions that are held by racists.

It's London and busy I can never really understand why people get so irate (what did they expect one of the biggest cities in the world to be like?), the correct thing for both of them to do would have been a brief apology and then move on.

candidkate · 19/02/2015 13:35

MaidOfStars I don't know if you are black or not and need not know, however for you to actually say, that accusing someone of being racist makes you racist is very worrying. Was Martin Luther King Racist? Was Rosa Parks racist? Were the allied forces racist for condemning Hitler for killing millions and millions of Jews? Why is it racist to sense racism? He didn’t call her racist because she was white, anyone would have a problem with the phrase don’t touch me and would question the motives behind it. I’d be very shocked if someone said that to me, it’s not like saying “pardon” or “please don’t shove” or “calm down love we will all get on”

FreudiansSlipper · 19/02/2015 13:36

As a society we need to challenge racists the excuses that they make is irrelevant so no one can

candidkate · 19/02/2015 13:39

worksallhours They don't want to and the assumption of that they wear it like a badge of honor is disgusting and bellow the belt. Its relevant to The West because The West funded it and reaps the rewards of it to this day. That's all. The conversation is mainly about black and white because the people arguing are black and white.

FreudiansSlipper · 19/02/2015 13:39

Oops posted too soon

No one is doing an excellent job of perpetuating preconceptions as they are already there a choice people make

candidkate · 19/02/2015 13:42

I agree TrueBlueYorkshire and whodrankmycoffee that's my issue too, why is everyone so obsessed with pointing out that he is also naughty too for calling her racist and being aggressive like we are in school. Racism isn't banter and not on par with rudeness. Not that this excuses rude and aggressive behavior in any way!!!

Callooh · 19/02/2015 13:46

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frontpaw · 19/02/2015 13:46

If I heard a woman say 'don't touch me' to a man, then I would assume it was because he was a man and not on the basis of his colour (or he was known to her and they had some history, or he had copped a feel or something like that).

He made the assumption, rightly or wrongly, that she didn't want to have physical contact with a black person, and kicked off on that basis.

If a woman said it to another woman, then I may wonder why she didn't want to be touched be her in particular. I may think it could be race, religion, class... or even a bad case of sunburn/lumbago being pressed against.

It happens all the time on London transport - people barge into you, try to walk through you, almost sit on your lap, whack your bags, wallop you with their bags and rucksacks... people are cross and aggressive too, and if its happened to you for the umpteenth time that day, yes tempers are getting flared. If lucky, people just give each other a nod or smile, or 'sorry mate'. If unlucky, they will start muttering, cursing or scowling. And yes, some buggers do shoulder-barge you on purpose to get a rise.

BoneyBackJefferson · 19/02/2015 13:48

"anyone would have a problem with the phrase don’t touch me and would question the motives behind it."

Anyone would? I wouldn't I would assume that I had invaded someone's space and apologise, I certainly wouldn't question their reasons behind it as there would be too many to count.

Callooh · 19/02/2015 13:48

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candidkate · 19/02/2015 13:50

Exactly Callooh .

*….the subtext of "don't touch me" is that someone is dirty or repulsive rather than just being rude and pushing”

Now what would make this man, on the busy tube, more dirty than the other people who no doubt have been shoving past her all morning? Let me bloody guess.

BoneyBackJefferson · 19/02/2015 13:53

and we are back to assuming what somebody else thinks.

candidkate · 19/02/2015 13:54

frontpaw They were on the tube, in all my 15 years of taking the tube (and i live in zone ONE London which is a hellhole sometimes underground!!) I've heard "dont shove" "watch it" "easy does it" but never bloody "don't touch me" as it's quite a standard to be touched on the tube. People don't mind being touched its the shoving they don't like and rightly so. She had a motive behind saying it and she goes on to prove it was because he was black.

Callooh · 19/02/2015 13:55

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nochocolateforlentteacake · 19/02/2015 13:59

I have definitely heard 'don't touch me' once and it may (or may not) have been to a bottom pincher.

I'm wondering if I've heard it any other times (not sure) but I have definitely heard 'get away from me', 'get off me', 'get out my face', 'don't get so close' etc. (plus the occasional 'fat bastard', 'smelly cow' and other charming expressions, and seen the odd fist fight).

I'm in zone one too and have been tubing it for 25 years... an absolute delight and getting worse.

MaidOfStars · 19/02/2015 13:59

however for you to actually say, that accusing someone of being racist makes you racist is very worrying
That's a rather facile summary of what I hope by now you understand my true opinion to be.

Having accused two people of being racist in this incident, and perhaps also accused some people on this thread (can't remember, oh yes, you), I clearly do not think that accusing someone of racism makes one a de facto racist.

Why is it racist to sense racism?
It's not. It's racist to assume racism based on skin colour, just like it would be sexist to assume sexism based on gender.

He didn’t call her racist because she was white
Neither you nor I have any way of knowing that. You think not, I suspect so. Just two people with different opinions.

anyone would have a problem with the phrase don’t touch me and would question the motives behind it
It is not for the person touching to question the motives of the person being touched in making such a request. I take your point though, it's blunt and perhaps unnecessary (do we allow for lack of linguistic fluency here? I don't know). I think that the most immediately obvious motive for a female to request a strange man stop touching her is based on gender, not race. Did he stop to think whether it was because he is a man, not because he is black? Again, we don't know what he thought, but I think he was too quick to start his ranting to have allowed time to process multiple possibilities.

candidkate · 19/02/2015 14:00

BoneyBackJefferson No one is assuming, no one is jumping to conclusions, why cant this lady just be racist because she made a racist comment and behaved in a xenophobic manner? Why is there such a maybe this maybe that attitude towards racism in this thread?

I've said this before and it was dodged, like most of my points are: if someone assumed a man was dodgy because he sat in a park with a camera filming little children alone no one would would say "so now we are assuming what a man is thinking when he takes a camera to a park and films little children" If someone mentioned this behavior similar to that of a pedophile no one would say "hold your horses you don't know if he's a pedophile"

I guess racism isn't a big deal......

MaidOfStars · 19/02/2015 14:07

She had a motive behind saying it and she goes on to prove it was because he was black

Oh hang the fuck on there.

Let's get this out of the way, just before anyone accuses me of condoning her comments. She was racist, she basically said that black "guys" have a chip on their shoulder because they used to be slaves. It is stupid, racist, ugly thing to say. I do not condone it in the slightest.

But...

What she said was not linked to why she said "Don't touch me". I don't where that logic comes from. Her racist comment was attacking the man's tirade of abuse, his accusation of racism, his anger and aggression.

In no way does it mean that she said "Don't touch me" because he was a black man.

MaidOfStars · 19/02/2015 14:09

For clarity: In no way does it prove that she said "Don't touch me" because he was a black man.

candidkate · 19/02/2015 14:10

MaidOfStars I understand where you are coming from and believe it or not I come from that very same place also, but he didn't say "you are racist...all you whites are" He simply called her racist which isn't a racist thing to do. I am calling her racist because she said something racist - there is evidence of it. There is evidence that he is aggressive, rude, ignorant, loud and abrasive. Not racist.

Lets be honest, its not normal to single someone out on the tube and tell them to "not touch you" and this guy picked up on that. It's not because he was a man because she's obviously been shoved by men/ women/ dogs/prams all morning

I feel a bit ill reading all these posts dedicated to painting him with that brush as though if a white person is racist its because they were pushed to or that their accuser is conveniently racist themselves.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 19/02/2015 14:11

If someone mentioned this behavior similar to that of a pedophile no one would say "hold your horses you don't know if he's a pedophile"

But this does get said on MN - all the time

Granted if the "suggested paedophile" started leering at the kids opinions would harden up (and rightly so) but most reasonable people at least accept there can sometimes be room for doubt - why should racism be any different??