to think that woman on the jubilee line is a plain racist

[casusally]

Listening to LBC today and lots of people where saying she did nothing racist saying "you guys used to be slaves". I'm glad the police are taking this seriously. Warning offensive video

www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/woman-comes-forward-after-racist-rant-video-shot-on-jubilee-line-line-train-10049662.html

The white posters assume that they have the right to decide what is racist and black posters should not question them

I'd add that, they gang up on our experiences and post about in a dismissive and patronising way on MN. No white person can understand how demeaning and hurting racism is

MaidOfStars Do you think you can only be racist if you explicitly vocalise something about race?

I'll answer your question, if that's ok, because its a good one (and I doubt you'll get a sensible answer from whom you asked it to).

Its probably an example of indirect racism ie not blatant and obvious but with a more subtle and exclusionary racist effect. Its why I suggested candidkate study proper legally recorded of racism in more detail, so that she can recognise what constitutes racism in the eyes of the law (although she/he considers the law irrelevant...)

I'm sure I speak for many in saying I find Creighton's continual racist assumptions and comments increasingly offensive.

Ithoughtasmuch I'd add that, they gang up on our experiences and post about in a dismissive and patronising way on MN. No white person can understand how demeaning and hurting racism is

Would it be possible at all for some posters to drop the assumption that everyone who posts on mumsnet and doesn't follow the uneducated approach to racism is a white woman?

Talk about stereotyping...

And by the way, there are more than two races in the world.

Posters on here use the privillege MN gives them in their majority to attack black posters and their experiences. You mostly come on here to justify why racists are racist and how black people bring it on to themselves. No one ever says to racists 'I am not a racist, will you please exclude me from the list of white people you believe to be racist'. No one ever!

there are more than two races in the world I am not stupid enough to not know that, I use black in a political sense

"No white person can understand how demeaning and hurting racism is"

And you know this how?

Are "white" people somehow immune from racism?

Boney no, white people do not suffer from racism and your posts just proves my point.

doesn't follow the uneducated approach I do not need education on racism. I experience every other day

I actually joined to post this because I am happy enough to browse for the information I need.

But I don't understand this thread and agree with candid what this woman said was racist and bloke on train is a tool.

All the whataboutary reminds me of men when arguing on blogs about sexism

You didn't respond on the right way
Freedom of speech
I knew a woman once who didn't mind
It's an isolated incident
I have never seen X before therefore it cannot have happened like that
The accusation is as bad as the crime so keep quiet
The fact that you thought of sexism proves you are in fact the sexism

And for all the claims of those siding with the woman why? We can all agree the bloke was an are by why respond with racism and why deny the racism of what was said.

TheChandler - You can say I am not moral, but I cannot remind you to be polite? We've both said things about one another, but when I remind you to play nice and not stress on trying to make people look stupid, you say I'm trying to play God? Drop it. You've been apologized to for any offence, you've also had your questions answered very clearly which you ignore at every single turn. You are hung up on painting me like a bad person when I've actually said several times that I understand where you are coming from, that I HAVE studied law and have an LLB, and that a racist credo and a racist action are two completely different things. The KKK is a racist organisation that are legally allowed to exist, however if they actualize their racism through an action or hate crime that is illegal.

You've also ignored what I've repeatedly pointed out: the lady brought up his race against him, he did not refer to her race once, or infer anything about her race. Calling someone racist does not make you racist and I've given you several reasons for why this is the case - none of which you have responded to.

You seem obsessed with telling me to educate myself, inferring that I'm stupid and making up that I'm being domineering because I won't budge on that despite being a prick he didn't say anything racist to her. Are we terrorists for suspecting Saddam of having weapons of mass destruction? Are we pedophiles for suspecting the man in the park with a camera is a bit dodgey? Why is it any different when someone has an instinct that someone who says "don't touch me" on one of the busiest transportation services in the world, is racist? "excuse me " is one of the first phrases you learn in English and I cannot believe that other posters are using a language barrier as an excuse.

So the debate has moved on to indirect racism. Could this man not have picked up on this? Is this not something that he has possibly tuned in to. He sounds to have an African accent so maybe his colour is not an issue where he is from he is what he is but here he is a black man and that is an issue for some

What laws protect people from looks of well you know it's because they are .... assumptions made not vocalised, actions taken with no vocal acknowledgement

What law protected my lovely
sweet aunty when after visiting my mums friends house the cups and plates used were washed with bleach because well you know from my dad being ignored by his work colleagues because he was going out with what they saw as one of their women (my mum didn't help she was stunningly beautiful) when my friend who has strong opinions on many subjects is told be less defensive, funny something I have not been told, but guess what she is black so an assumption she is defensive which she is not just opinionated

these are the less obvious traits of racism that is so hard to pinpoint and call out on. Many of these people would not see they are being racist as they have black/Asian friend and do not support ukip but still have these assumptions. We know it happens but how do we deal with it and isn't it about time to actually listen to those who know best, who can tell you their experiences without us (not meaning every white poster) getting defensive

Boney no, white people do not suffer from racism and your posts just proves my point

Someone once called me a 'white princess who doesn't want to touch the dirty Paki'. Not racist?

Sorry but ive been spat on because of my skin colour.

Ive also had people say negative things about my Italian heritage.

If you think white people can't be victims of racism you're an idiot. it's not a competition. You don't get a medal for being the most discriminated against.

Yes that is prejudice name calling

I have been called a white bitch it was not nice upsetting but what other impact does being white have on me

that is a far as it goes name calling apart from a few further thankfully isolated incidences (that I am sure we shall now be told about) . It's like everyday sexism men may at times suffer from sexism but it is not part of their everyday life which for many non white (and Jewish) people everyday subtle racism/prejudice is

The crying out I have called been called names too really shows the lack of understanding or wanting to understand of how racism impacts lies and plays out in our society

I always think of racism in two distinct guys is there power behind it or not. I am not saying I am right but that's what I do.

If the person saying the racist thing has the power to physically hurt me or prevent me getting accommodation, employment or other material comforts I would otherwise be entitled to that in my mind is more serious.
So if I were to use maid of honours example if that was said to her in an environment with a majority Pakistan population like i dont know an reception while waiting for a job interview. I would take it far more seriously than on a random bus with a mixed group. In both scenarios it's racism but the first is more serious. But either instance maid would be entitled to her feelings which is something darker skinned people are often not entitled to which is to feel intimidated, hurt or upset. Unless it's "serious" bnp or kkk style racism keep quiet stop making a fuss ... or my favourite how did you provoke it.

Note how I take maid's anecdote at face value.

Could this man not have picked up on this?
As I acknowledged earlier, it's perfectly possible that her response/tone of voice/whatever caused him to think there was something more sinister than just the superficial actions. Maybe he did "pick up" on something, I don't know.

I would ask whether it is the normal response to a "vibe", but I'd be accused of trying once again to put black people in their place or something.

I will ask, however, whether that intuition/radar is only a trait of non-white people? It seems to me that if you credit this black man with being able to pick up on non-explicit racial undertones, it is perfectly possible that a white person might pick up on non-explicit racial undertones, no?

Yet when someone (me, for example) says "His whole argument was horrible and unnecessary, he's acting in a racist fashion, I don't think he'd have done it if she'd have been black, etc", I am told that because he didn't explicitly use race, it can't be racist (direct or otherwise). Maybe that girl on the train had a "vibe" about his rant? I certainly do.

Just pondering, not arguing.

I 100% AGREE FreudiansSlipper which is why TheChandler is slightly irritating by constantly bringing in the the study of law like it has anything to do with a belief system. We are not talking about law enforcement that's pretty simple and straightforward, anyone with an internet connection can google what the law says about racism. Anyone can google "racism" and get a lovely definition of what it is.

You are spot on by outlining that just because she didn't essentially spit on him and call him a nigger, doesn't mean that what she said, and how she behaved isn't racist.

It's racist to not speak to someone because they stole your "woman", but the police cannot get involved because they didn't commit a crime. They are just ignorant and racist. TheChandler is literally saying that if it is not punishable by law then it's not racism. Ridiculous.

Someone once called me a 'white princess who doesn't want to touch the dirty Paki'. Not racist?

Yes, I had very similar in a nightclub once because I moved away from a fucking sleazeball.

I have also had derogatory comments about my Irish heritage, although I concede that's not strictly 'racism'.

He was a racist prick who was spoiling for a fight and looking to intimidate.

She made a racist comment when what she should have done was just leave it and not stoop to his level.

THey both came out of it looking like twats.

The crying out I have been called names too really shows the lack of understanding or wanting to understand of how racism impacts lies and plays out in our society

Of course there is a difference between discussing specific racial incidents (being spat on, being called names) and discussing systemic racism. Do you think people are too stupid to understand the difference? I agree that white people in the UK are not victims of institutional racism.

However, my post (and Grays') was in direct response to:

Ithoughtasmuch white people do not suffer from racism

...which is patently not true.

just because she didn't essentially spit on him and call him a nigger, doesn't mean that what she said, and how she behaved isn't racist
Yet you really don't see your basic contradiction when you say:

He cannot be racist (in terms of his actions, as i said I am not God) if he didn't bring up her race

It's racist to not speak to someone because they stole your "woman"

What the fuck?

How is is racist to not speak to someone because they stole your wife/girlfriend? It's a pretty normal response, I'd imagine.

Ithoughtasmuch
"no, white people do not suffer from racism and your posts just proves my point."

All it proves is that in your opinion white people cannot suffer from racism. What other posts have "proved" is that people excuse racism as name calling and rudeness.

And the your woman was a response to my post. My mum is a white woman she is not one of yours my dad being Asian she belong to us (white men)

MaidOfStars -

He probably would have called her racist if she were black because black people can actually be extremely distrustful and violent towards each other because of slavery, colonialism, the media etc. Many black men would never marry a black woman. I'm not indicating that mixed raced families are only the product of one person hating their race but i assure you its a huge issue in the black community. Furthermore a few mumsnetters who are white with a mixed raced child would find that her partner has never ever been interested in a black woman in his LIFE.

Black people are scared of other black people in hoodies etc its not like they all love each other and hate white people that's ridiculous. I hear black women complain all the time to other black men saying "if i had lighter skin or were white you'd find me attractive"

Where do you think the term "Uncle Tom" comes from? It's used for a black person who distrusts their own people and prefers "Massa" or whites which unfortunately many blacks actually do.

Furthermore this man isn't British, if a black girl with a British accent accused him he would have said "It's because I'm not English like you" and I'm not trying to be funny but perhaps this is true.

Just offering a different perspective regarding the view that black people are so quick to call a white person racist - to be quite frank they squabble among each other regarding race a lot too.

Candidkate thank you for your posts, I agree with everyone of them.

I see the Mumsnet habit of wanting to discuss an issue impacting a minority group, without having to engage with any pesky members of that minority group is alive and well.

No one here would let a man set himself up as the arbiterarbiter of what is sexist, so why is this the case with racism?

Finally, there is a difference between racism and bigotry: Power + Prejudice = Racism