To hope we look back on this in horror?

[Fanfeckintastic]

I'm in Ireland and recently watched a documentary about Irish women going to England for abortions because it's illegal over here. I was saying to DP that hopefully one day we'll be able to look back on this with the same horror we do at the fact interracial couples were once not allowed to marry, homophobia etc but he doesn't think it's comparable because interracial marriages and homosexuality etc involves consenting adults. In my opinion abortion involves a consenting adult, that's it.

I'm not saying they're the exact same thing but am I unreasonable to hope that one day we'll look back at the fact it was illegal in my country to have a choice about what we do with our own uterus?

Many pro lifers are just wanting women to be given a proper choice

I'm not sure you've got your definitions right there vdb. Pro lifers by definition want to remove the choice of abortion. Pro lifers want women to only have one choice - the 'proper' choice in their opinion.

If you want women to have a choice, you are pro choice. Pro choice doesn't mean pro abortion, it means pro access to abortions, as early as possible, as late as necessary.

And FWIW The Daily Mail loathes women and definitely considers their rights secondary to those of men... And foetuses... And animals... And dirt, really. It hates the idea of women hhaving equality, or a say, or their opinions being considered on a par with men's - the ghastly Femail section is proof of that.

Whatever the Mail has to say about feminist issues and anything regarding women's rights and things like abortion should be taken with a pinch of salt and a suspicion of bullshit.

vdb, actually, I have read many reports, and there was a documentary where the "christian" counsellors said exactly the things I said they did. Used those words and phrases. However, I am glad that you acknowledge that what they said was cruel. It was. It was also lies.

And I can't bloody find it.....

If that's indeed what they do vdb then it's a shame they're getting so much negative press thanks to those vile bastards that hang around with placards outside clinics intimidating women and making them feel like shit.

It's this image that made me steer well clear of any pro life counselling.

also,there are quite a few comments on here about pregnancies needing to be terminated to put the baby/foetus out of severe pain, but I thought that foetuses cannot feel pain. (I actually don't think that, I think there is evidence that they can feel pain from 18 weeks gestation) However, most in favour of abortion argue that a baby will not feel anything when they are either suctioned out or given drugs to give them a heart attack. Either they are capable of pain or not.

sorry if that last post came across as harsh but I am a bit confused about the pain thing and I cannot find anything on Google that will tell me what foetal abnormalities/conditions cause pain.

vdb I think people mainly talk about terminating to put the baby/foetus out of pain, is referring to the fact that in the event of forced birth, the baby will have to live for however long, potentially in a lot of pain. At least by having a termination, they are stopping the foetus from becoming that baby, and so protecting it from the pain.

Babyfacedassassins account of going full term was desperately sad. I cannot imagine how awful that must have been, and yes it did make me weep reading it. It must have been an unimaginably awful experience.Sorry you had to go through that Babyface. In many cases the baby is born alive and can live for a few hours,not in pain, and those moments can be very precious. I guess what I am saying about choice is that if a baby has a condition incompatible with life,the doctors do advise termination. Many accept this because the doctor says it is best all round, but many women testify to the bitter sweet moments they had with their new born baby before it died and this should be discussed as an option. There is always a chance that baby will not make it through to birth but at least you are giving it that chance. Why is one alternative presented as preferable to the point of women feeling pressurized to terminate.

thank you Moomin....I had misinterpreted those comments.

VDB - Do you know based on stats that a lot of women get that experience. I don't have detailed information, but sadly my understanding that the type of experience BabyFaced had was far more common. Very sadly.

Maybe in mainland uk do the doctors advise termination in the case of fatal foetal abnormality but not in Northern Ireland or Ireland. Which is what this thread started off being about. Here, it is illegal, not an option at all. You have no choice, you are in fact forced to continue with the pregnancy not knowing when the ordeal when end.

Oh BabyFaced. It is absolutely inhumane what happened to you. I can't believe that any right thinking individual wouldn't think you should have the choice. Yes, there are people who find great peace in going with what will be. But that doesn't mean that one will find peace in a forced continuation. It makes me so, so angry.

I have a friend who was pregnant when she discovered she had cancer. Her team were very supportive as it was a much wanted pregnancy. She attempted treatments compatible with continuing. When that didn't work, she had to terminate to begin the hardest regime. That gave her, and her husband, and her older children, the chance to say goodbye to her much loved baby. Sadly, there is no fairytale ending and she died a few years ago. But the thought that any fucker out there would have denied her family a proper goodbye to their daughter, or reduced my friend's chances, makes me feel that they must really value control over any pretence of valuing life.

Penguins:(

Vdb you can't reduce this to stats. I knew one of mine had a condition and before the parameters of this were defined I busied myself researching options. There were a few where my fear wouldn't have been that the baby would die soon after birth but rather that he wouldn't. That horror of not being able to make a choice is what no woman should live with. What we choose is our business only

When my mother became unexpectedly pregnant aged 44 (this was 24 years ago) the first doctor she saw offered her a termination. She didn't want it. But this is the thing - she was offered a choice - she was 44, she already had 4 growing children (two of us adult). But she didn't have to take them up on it. We have a much loved, wonderful younger sibling now.

Because that's what it's about - the woman's choice. Her choice.

Pro-choicers are not for abortion for every unplanned baby, for every foetus that has an illness incompatible with life, for every foetus with a disability. We are for her choice, her freedom to choose.

BabyFaced ive just seen on here what you went through My deepest sympathies to you

Exactly, Sabrina.

It's not us who want to limit lives, now, is it?

Why is one alternative presented as preferable to the point of women feeling pressurized to terminate. Advising is not pressurizing, and most women do not want to put themselves or their potential child through agonising pain.

grimble - you agree with parents euthanising babies born with disabilities/life limiting conditions then?
Bumbley another disgusting and emotive comment. Not based in fact but based in what you feel regardless of what people have experienced. I will say again, you should not be allowed to post these sort of comments and I will be reporting this.

I agree dawn, bumbleys comments have been horrendous. There's defending the pro life argument and then there's that. Not quite personal attacks but almost.

sabrina hear hear.

For anyone that does need support and advice on travelling to England, there's a support thread in pregnancy choices. Link here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/pregnancy_choices/2294816-Support-and-advice-for-Irish-Northern-Irish-women-seeking-abortion

I'm so so sorry about the awful experiences some of you have had
I am utterly appalled that abortion is illegal in NI, genuinely didn't know that - thought it just applied to the south. And the fact you cant have an NHS aborttion makes me so fucking angry.
I had an abortion 3 years ago. I went to the walk-in sexual health clinic in the hospital across the road from my work on Friday afternoon and was booked into a BPAS clinic on Monday morning. The clinic was lovely and the staff were amazing.
The Doctor I saw spoke to me for nearly 30 minutes making sure I was absolutely certain about my decision- not in the way of trying to make me justify it or change my mind, just making absolutely sure that I knew this was what I wanted. She also made sure that nobody was pressuring me into an abortion. It really wasn't just signing a form. There was a kitchen there where you could have tea and a sandwich before you left.
I just felt so unbelievably thankful that I live in the UK and for the NHS. I feel so strongly that every woman's experience should be like mine.

Punta "Of course. Everyone should stop having all these nasty abortions, that cause all the arguments. Then everything will be fine. "

I think you misunderstood that post. I meant if people stopped asking people with different opinions not to post then there wouldn't be a problem. It only seems to be an acceptable thing to do on these types of threads. Everywhere else differing opinions are absolutely fine - even if they do offend some people.

Ici, you've dodged a question on euthanasia for newborns with disabilities. If you think it's wrong for babies to be in pain then do you support that idea?

Interesting about anencephaly Baby. I was reading about it recently and apparently there can be issues over organ donation from babies with anencephaly because there is a difficultly in determining whether or not they are brain dead. So it may not be a clear cut as you think.

Again with euthanasia bumbley?

I think it's relevant to the argument that it's wrong to allow a baby to be born and potentially suffer pain.

Typically, Bumbley seeks to muddy the waters by spreading misinformation.

The wikipedia article (which I am not linking to because it contains very graphic and potentially extremely upsetting images - not in the sense of misleading images typically used by forced birther demonstrations, where they wave placards of nearly term foetuses under the noses of women who are in their first trimester, but in the sense of upsetting because it brings home just how terribly serious this condition is and how devastating a diagnosis is for the parents) discusses brain death. The issue is one of diagnosis and legal criteria for brain death. It is not one of whether the foetus or neonate is capable of conscious thought - the relevant bits of the cortex are missing - simply not there.

The issue seems to be more that the legal definitions of brain death (designed for cases of adults critically injured and left in comas) simply aren't easily applied to neonates. This doesn't magically mean they have brain function, simply that the tests you'd use to determine this in adults are not applicable in this case.

The article also mentions slippery slope arguments, but I don't think those are something I'd take particularly seriously in this case.

Personally I'd go for letting Bumbley's posts stand, just so that she can condemn herself in her own words as the vile human being she is.

It isn't relevant bumbley. The termination of an embryo is completely different to the euthanasia of a child.

and that comment to baby about anencephaly completely lacks compassion. You should be ashamed of yourself.