To hope we look back on this in horror?

[Fanfeckintastic]

I'm in Ireland and recently watched a documentary about Irish women going to England for abortions because it's illegal over here. I was saying to DP that hopefully one day we'll be able to look back on this with the same horror we do at the fact interracial couples were once not allowed to marry, homophobia etc but he doesn't think it's comparable because interracial marriages and homosexuality etc involves consenting adults. In my opinion abortion involves a consenting adult, that's it.

I'm not saying they're the exact same thing but am I unreasonable to hope that one day we'll look back at the fact it was illegal in my country to have a choice about what we do with our own uterus?

Thanks for the link, Petula. It's heartbreaking, and so, so wrong. I'm actually furious that in 2015 women in UK are being treated as lesser citizens simply because of the horrible views of people who really should know better.

If this was happening to a group of men it would be a national outrage.

They are absolutely fantastic. I don't know what I would have done without them.

I have to add wrt to the costs, I was extremely lucky and didn't need an overnight stay in a hotel or to book extra flights or take an family member/friend with me.

Oh and if you want to be fitted with the coil or any other LARC it costs too. £15 for the coil

Would I be right in thinking women who have to travel often have to choose a surgical termination too, when that may not otherwise have been the best choice for them physically or emotionally.

I suspect it depends on their finances, Penguins. A well off woman would have no trouble getting the money together would have the option of a non surgical termination, whereas, if you have to save or borrow, you might have to have a surgical termination.

Again, the rich get richer, the poor stay pregnant.

Why would they be left in pain though? Do we tend to let children born with disabilities suffer in pain? Do you think we should allow parents to decide to euthanise them instead?

Sorry, bumbley, you don't get to slide that easily out of the issue of life-terminating disabilities that leave babies in agony before they die. There are conditions which cause so much pain that medication barely touches it. So should a mother be forced to carry a child to term in the certain knowledge that that child's life will be short and they will know nothing but severe pain during that time?

And even if they can be given effective pain killing drugs, for a baby there's a very good chance they will hasten that child's death. But surely you wouldn't allow that, because every moment of life is precious?

Enomouse

"I was extremely lucky and didn't need an overnight stay in a hotel or to book extra flights or take an family member/friend with me."

I just feel so sad for you having to do all that on your own, it's so wrong that you were put in that position

I was thinking from the time and aftercare perspective really. Though finances obviously plays a huge part.

Ah, sorry, didn't explain myself well.

The clinical choice between a medical or a surgical ToP is usually based on how many weeks gestation the foetus is. So, a well off woman would probably be able to more easily access a medical ToP due to being able to pay and therefore travel at an earlier gestational point, whereas a less well off woman, because she might need to borrow, save or access help from an agency like ASN, might then be far enough along to necessitate a surgical ToP.

I have no stats to back that up, but I would suggest that is a reasonable theory.

From the link Petula posted:

"But let this ruling serve as a reminder of the appalling fact that women from Northern Ireland are forced to travel to England everyday to access a fundamental healthcare service that they should be able to obtain at home, or take their chances by illegally buying abortion medication online.

So, denying women access to abortion doesn't stop them having, even when their is a great deal of risk involved in doping so.

And this is happening in the UK in 2015.

"Again, the rich get richer, the poor stay pregnant."

Puffins I'd would guess that is right.

Baby am so sorry you had that experience, and to the others who had to travel for their terminations:(

There are some good things to take from this thread though a real feel that most women have a great compassion for other women and an ability to empathise with lives different to their own. I do feel this in the real world too.

Bubbleymummy I can't include you in that. I have seen you on threads like this before and as you become better at parroting the 'life' leaflets you make less sense and seem so cold towards real women and the reality of what a burden an unwanted pregnancy is.

I’ve just watched the video that ghostyslovesheep posted, and I understand the distressing point that TheBabyFacedAssassin has made. It is so horribly distressing to realise what so many women/parents go through, when they should not be required to do so. Laws should be about doing the best for the people - providing a legal framework where they will be protected and respected and cared about. Many, if not most, laws are prohibitory, but in terms of not causing harm or pain to others. But the laws or systems in place in Ireland and NI are causing further harm and pain to people who are already in distress.

It is so very easy to have a view that is absolute, but human lives aren’t straightforward. It’s not like the laws of classical physics. The mark of a civilised country is the recognition that a blanket ban on abortion doesn’t speak to the exceptions that are faced by its people in real life. The consequences of the Irish 8th amendment, and kowtowing of the authorities in NI, are barbaric. That’s not how it should be in the 21st century in the modern world.

Bumbley interesting that you support ceasing life support if the person is brain dead. So, again extending your logic which you have demonstrated, in the case where a woman is carrying a baby that has been diagnosed with anencephaly, meaning they have no skull or brain, and are essentially brain dead, you would support a termination? And when you say no, please explain why.

exactly Wanda it's barbaric - that's totally the right word :(

That was the problem I had puffins. The medical termination at Marie Stopes, Belfast would have cost me £464. By the time I would have that I would be well over the 9 week limit.

My other options were to buy pills from women on web or women help women. Who provide reputable pills but it is illegal to do so.

The only choice I had was to save up and travel which was still cheaper than a medical termination at Marie Stopes.

Very true Puffins.

What I was also thinking is that someone who has made a decision at, say 6 weeks, might have the option of either procedure (though I realise sometimes you need to wait for surgical). But you have to take the tablets 8 hours apart, some places keep you in after the second tablet, some places ask you to attend follow up in person. And that's leaving aside the issue of travelling whilst the termination is completing if medical. As I understood it, you weren't allowed to travel alone afterwards.

So I kind of meant that having to travel so far, unless you had massive resources and could hole up in a hotel for a week with a partner, forced your hand, even if you were very early.

Cross post Enormouse . I was thinking of ROI women in my last post.

Thank you saskia. It was ok. I have a supportive partner and the staff at bpas were lovely, compassionate and kind. As were the women going through the same thing on the recovery ward. I also had phone support from ASN.

So I wasn't alone even though I travelled alone.

I've read this whole thread quite fascinated by bumbleymummy's extremely...strange views.

*"...just because you are not upset by it does not mean that someone else isn't. It's relevant irt people trying to stop pro-lifers expressing their opinion at the risk of offending/upsetting people who have had abortions. Of course, if people stopped doing that then there would be no issue at all."

Of course. Everyone should stop having all these nasty abortions, that cause all the arguments. Then everything will be fine.

For.
Fuck's.
Sake.

Sigh...there really is no point in trying to converse with the 'men are all out to get us brigade'.

Well, nobody has said that - but I take it you mean 'feminists' or 'women believing in their right to bodily autonomy' or even, 'women who don't want to go back to pre-1967 days of backstreet abortions and desperate women.'

Do you disagree that the conservative right of America -and the majority of those with any power over legislation are men- are chipping away at abortion rights, closing down clinics wherever possible, attempting to reverse Roe vs Wade and generally wanting to gradually outlaw abortion? Because they really are quite open about the fact.

And they're slowly making their way over here too (in the form of lobbyists/advisors to Nadine Dorries and the like).

I think one of the problems I see in the UK is that it really hard for any woman to receive impartial advice when she is seeking it. This is a link to an article where a reporter visits 6 clinics.She felt the first 2 were very pro-abortion and did not really spend any time on alternatives.Her most impartial visit was a Christian charity which genuinely put no pressure on her either way and then she had 2 further 'Christian' charities who were not impartial.

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2031572/Abortion-Mail-writers-investigation-counselling-services-poses-disturbing-questions.html

In many cases when a severe foetal abnormality is detected the medical professionals can be very quick to suggest a termination, to the extent that couples who refuse are really pressurised to reconsider. I have just been weeping my way through several online accounts of mothers who carried babies with anencephaly to term and then held them for hours until they passed away. Interestingly, in all the accounts I read the babys were very peaceful and not in any pain, so whilst there may be some conditions in which the babies may be in pain,I don't think there are that many. Many pro-lifers are just wanting women to be given proper choice. If doctors took time to explain that going full term might give you the chance to spend a few hours with your baby, not in pain,parents might see that as a valid choice and not always wonder about it. It should not feel like a battle for those parents choosing to keep their baby.
Here are some stories to illustrate why I am really uncomfortable about termination on the grounds of physical health. The doctors are not always right. and when they are, there should still be a choice to carry baby to term without being guilt tripped at every appointment.
gatewaynews.co.za/baby-born-healthy-after-couple-resist-pressure-from-doctors-to-abort/

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2274668/My-baby-perfect-Why-did-doctors-push-abort-her.html

www.lifenews.com/2014/11/11/pressured-to-abort-we-wanted-more-tests-our-doctor-said-only-test-youll-get-is-an-autopsy/

liveactionnews.org/parents-of-unborn-babies-with-disabilities-often-experience-great-pressure-to-abort/

Many pro-lifers are just wanting women to be given proper choice.

Sorry but that is just not true - unless you are twisting the English language beyond all reason.

Pro-life means against abortion. Some make a few caveats like 'unless the life of the mother is at stake' - but one thing they don't believe is that a woman should be "given proper choice".

Otherwise they'd be pro-choice wouldn't they?

Obviously not the same "Christian" charity, which was telling women that if they had a ToP that they were more likely to abuse any future children, because "research", that women who had ToP were more likely to get breast cancer etc... and this was a major anti-choice charity which had been commissioned to provide counselling to women seeking help.

And vdb, did you cry at BabyFacedAssasin's account of her experiences? She went full term.....

I get what you're trying to say btw vdb. However, I know, for a fact, that women are not pushed toward ToP unless that's what they want, or there is no chance for the child to live. BabyFaced's experience is far more common than your lovely stories are. Trust me. I know.

Actually,if you read the article about the reporter,the clinic that gave her the best support and info was a Christian one. Whilst the volunteers and staff there would probably love for everyone to decide to have their baby, most of them will support a woman through a termination and offer post abortion counselling. They are really not as cruel as you make out.