To hope we look back on this in horror?

[Fanfeckintastic]

I'm in Ireland and recently watched a documentary about Irish women going to England for abortions because it's illegal over here. I was saying to DP that hopefully one day we'll be able to look back on this with the same horror we do at the fact interracial couples were once not allowed to marry, homophobia etc but he doesn't think it's comparable because interracial marriages and homosexuality etc involves consenting adults. In my opinion abortion involves a consenting adult, that's it.

I'm not saying they're the exact same thing but am I unreasonable to hope that one day we'll look back at the fact it was illegal in my country to have a choice about what we do with our own uterus?

[PeppermintCrayon]

I haven't read the whole thread.

I just don't understand why anyone who claims to give even the vaguest shit about an unborn baby would wish them to be born into a life where they are unwanted.

[Enormouse]

I really wasn't prepared for the intense anger I felt watching the documentary. So many things in it really got to me.

Bernie Smyths vile speech - had to mute that.
The awful contrast between the carnavalesque atmosphere of the anti abortion rallies and the suffering of the women having to travel.
The teenagers and the parroting of the 'voice for the voiceless' phrase.
How dark it was when the couple had to travel.

Dp took it quite hard too, seeing the inside of Marie Stopes. He wanted to come with me and support me but it was just too expensive.

My procedure was almost 2 weeks ago and I didn't cry on the day at all. I came home and got on with caring for the DSes and going to uni and not being a zombie like I had been for weeks. I cried a lot yesterday though. Not because I was upset about my decision but because I felt so much anger at what I and those women had to do.

[tobysmum77]

One thing that struck me were the pictures. Of course the normal people (those who believe in choice) could easily compete . But they wouldn't stoop so low. Says it all I think.

[vdbfamily]

I think the point is Peppermint, that many women have abortions because they fall pregnant at a time that is not of their planning,and feel it will affect their life plans too much. Not that they will not love that child. I know several women who fell pregnant at very inconvenient times,(including my DM, DMIL, several close friends mothers and a few of my friends) or after they already had enough children, but because abortion was not freely available, or because they did not agree with abortion, they continued their pregnancies and now have much loved and wanted children. I am not saying they don't exist,as they probably do, but I don't know anyone who felt they had to continue and still really regrets having the child they had.
It is possible to care about women and care equally about unborn babies.

I am finding interesting the current debate about sex-selective abortion in this country which they are talking about making explicitly illegal. I thought about starting a new thread on this as I don't want to derail, but I also have no idea what section to start the thread(any advice?) . If you are pro-choice to the extent that you accept any reason up until birth to abort (and many pro-choicers argue that this is the only valid belief,as anything else is dictating to the woman what she does with her body), we are then saying it is okay for women to decide to get rid of a 20+ week baby purely because it is the wrong sex. It is 99.9% of the time girl babies being aborted and generally from within cultures that value their women even less than ours.I suspect many of these women are under duress because their husbands will be less than impressed if they have a girl.They could probably argue 'emotional distress' even if it were made illegal, but should feminists not be jumping up and down about this?
As I said before....no intention to derail but not sure how helpful starting another abortion thread would be or where to put it. Also very genuinely interested in peoples views on this.

[Dawndonnaagain]

vbd. I am 56. You would not believe the amount of time my catholic, head teacher mother told me she wished she had managed an abortion with me. She is an abusive woman who should never have had children. I still support anyone who wishes to terminate at any point.

[PetulaGordino]

i would rather regret an abortion than a child. The fact that many women continue with unplanned pregnancies and are happy to have the child is not a reason to remove the choice for others. Have you watched the documentary?

Re sex selection, it is of course something that I think is wrong. However, it is something of a red herring here because sex selection (which often favours male babies) falls within the same misogynist framework of women being devalued and second class citizens as abortion being illegal. if women were of equal status it would not happen. i don't know enough about the proposed law to be able to comment on that because I don't know how that would manifest - it would be interesting to know how Canada handles this. My gut feeling however, is that once a woman genuinely no longer consents to supporting the fetus with her body, then that is reason enough, even if I personally find the reasons abhorrent. If such a situation meant many more female fetuses being aborted than male, then it is something to tackle at a societal level in terms of continuing the push towards women achieving equal rights and valued equally because that is the root cause. I can't bring myself to insist that a woman continues with a pregnancy she does not want.

[Enormouse]

vdb I second dawn on this. It's a horrible feeling growing up knowing you're unwanted. My mother told me 'that she wished she had an abortion with me but she was glad she hadn't as I had grown up to be so promising'. Our relationship has never recovered and remains civil yet distant.

And I am of a culture that traditionally values boys more than girls. It is changing though, at least in the uk. Because the boys in my family were treated differently to girls I was worried how I would bond with my first DS.

[MoominKoalaAndMiniMoom]

VDB it's very taboo to say you regret your child which may account for some of that.

I contemplated abortion up until 12 weeks when I fell pregnant at 19, halfway through uni - so yeah, pretty disruptive to my plans and not fitting with what I was hoping for. I didn't have an abortion because I was scared of the process, continued with the pregnancy and had DD, who I adore and who lights up my world. I don't regret my decision for a moment, but I'm not daft. I know that if I'd had an abortion, I'd be a lot more free in terms of what I'm going to do after uni. We'd have fewer financial worries, I wouldn't get so stressed over deadlines.

Because I'd never have known DD, that isn't me saying I regret keeping her - its me saying that babies aren't the only way a life can be enriched, and you have no way of knowing that the lives of the people you mentioned wouldn't have been just as good and full had they had an abortion.

[PuffinsAreFictitious]

At the moment we have a world where women are lesser than men, a demonstration of this is Ireland's wish to control female bodies by refusing to allow them to choose to remain pregnant or not. Until that changes, we will continue to see rates of femicide remain level around the world. If countries ban sex selective abortion, there will be a return to traditional methods of abortion, taking pennyroyal or wormwood or other poisonous herbal concoctions, or back to the man in a kitchen with a knitting needle.

I would prefer women not to be put into the position where they are conditioned to want to abort female foetuses purely based on their sex, but as we don't live in that perfect society, I believe that those women have a right to safe, legal abortion. I trust women.

[ChristyMooreRocks]

One thing that struck me were the pictures. Of course the normal people (those who believe in choice) could easily compete . But they wouldn't stoop so low. Says it all I think.

THats a bloody good point actually. These people say that foetuses are deserving of respect and that they are equal to the women carrying Them blah blah - but they think nothing of plastering horrible images of aborted foetuses all over billboards in a town centre, in literature thrust into people's hands, and all over the Internet?

Yes, because that is so respectful - that is real reverence to the sanctity of life right there

[Icimoi]

Ici, you've dodged a question on euthanasia for newborns with disabilities. If you think it's wrong for babies to be in pain then do you support that idea?

Nothing like economising with the truth, bumbley, is there? Not only did I not dodge any such question as it wasn't asked of me but, assuming you are referring to my last post, it specifically referred to life-terminating disabilities. Rather a significant omission.

But the interesting issue arising out of that is that I did raise with you your views on effective painkilling medication for such children which might shorten their lives. Have you taken the opportunity to answer that?

[ChristyMooreRocks]

And yes, there are plenty of disturbing images that the pro choice lobby could use, but we never see them, because actually they are the ones with the real 'respect'.

[Baddz]

Mouse...I am the eldest daughter of an Irish catholic mother and I can empathise with a lot of what you say re: the trearment of girls and boys.

[Enormouse]

baddz the funny thing is the boys have turned out to be feckless. Lovely, but feckless and the majority still live with their parents.

The girls have all gone to university and live independently with the older ones being homeowners.

I am determined to raise my boys as feminists who are capable of living independently.

[Baddz]

Yep.
Sounds familiar.
Luckily my 2 boys are are strident feminists.
Wonder where they get that from? :)

[CommanderShepard]

bumbley, I recently had a miscarriage. To have it confirmed at my local hospital - and to ensure it wasn't ectopic - I had to walk past a baying group of anti-choicers who were very carefully standing on the grounds of the catholic church which is immediately next to the hospital.

How do you think that felt? How many of those people had my best interests at heart? There was no escape from them. They were baying at everyone entering the hospital site, the vast majority of whom wouldn't even have been going anywhere near gynae since the hospital is one of the UK's biggest.

You could have kept that embryo inside me for 9 months and it would never have grown into a person. It wasn't a baby except in my heart.

I've suffered hyperemesis, antenatal depression, pre-eclampsia, birth trauma and a miscarriage in the course of growing my family. You'd better believe I support the right of any woman to choose not to go through that.

[PuffinsAreFictitious]

Commander..... I'm so sorry you had that experience. Those protests should not be allowed near hospitals/clinics at all. All they do by being there is cause people pain. If they really wanted the law to change, they'd be showing their revolting and false pictures to politicians outside Westminster.

For a bunch of people who think they occupy a moral high ground, their desire to harm women doesn't really fit.

[PetulaGordino]

It's not actually about the fetuses they want to "save" is it? It's all about them

[Dawndonnaagain]

Commander

They are a bunch of selfish, self righteous morons. If they actually cared they wouldn't be demonstrating such awful behaviours. For people who go on about children so much, what sort of role models do they think they are?

[Enormouse]

Commander I'm so sorry

puffins I agree. It's disgusting that they go for the most vulnerable target, women in pain, at one of the most difficult moments in their lives.

[WonderingWillow]

commander I'm so sorry

BPAS also do vasectomies. I did feel rather sorry for the women there supporting husbands actually; the protesters outside screamed at them too. Nice. Nice.

[WonderingWillow]

their not there

[WonderingWillow]

The anti abortion protesters (not pro life) are made of the same stuff as those who protest at the funerals of dead soldiers.

[PuffinsAreFictitious]

Petula of course it's all about them!

And yes, wondering I think I'd probably agree with you there.