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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To hope we look back on this in horror?

674 replies

Fanfeckintastic · 03/02/2015 23:31

I'm in Ireland and recently watched a documentary about Irish women going to England for abortions because it's illegal over here. I was saying to DP that hopefully one day we'll be able to look back on this with the same horror we do at the fact interracial couples were once not allowed to marry, homophobia etc but he doesn't think it's comparable because interracial marriages and homosexuality etc involves consenting adults. In my opinion abortion involves a consenting adult, that's it.

I'm not saying they're the exact same thing but am I unreasonable to hope that one day we'll look back at the fact it was illegal in my country to have a choice about what we do with our own uterus?

OP posts:
PuffinsAreFictitious · 06/02/2015 19:27

First NI = Northern Ireland

Second on = National Insurance

sorry, confusing!

bumbleymummy · 06/02/2015 19:29

Penguins, it's still on topic - the ethics of abortion. Most people here answered the original question before moving on to explanations and discussions around their opinion. If everyone just said YANBU/YABU it would be a rather boring thread and over in a couple of pages.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 06/02/2015 19:29

"If NI is going to continue to bar women from accessing necessary medical care, then maybe they should be given some form of NI relief to mitigate for that? "

Yes, that's a good point! If women in NI are not offered the same range of treatments that women in the rest of UK have, it doesn't seem fair to expect them to pay the same amount in National Insurance.

grimbletart · 06/02/2015 19:30

I just got round to watching the Youtube link about the women with fatal foetal abnormalities who had to travel to England for terminations.

The last sentence on the video spoken by one of the women:

"Who would make a woman grow a baby just to watch it suffer and die. It's barbaric and it has to stop."

Yes bumbly - we are looking at you and those like you.

bumbleymummy · 06/02/2015 19:32

Saskia, dear, just because I don't share your opinion doesn't mean that I'm not a rational adult.

puffins, it's one example. someone offered another and whether you like it or not it shows that there are pro-lifers doing more than just 'standing around outside clinics'.

grimble - you agree with parents euthanising babies born with disabilities/life limiting conditions then?

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 06/02/2015 19:35

Thinking more on the idea - a woman from NI is a citizen of the UK, if she travels to England, she is still in the UK, but in a different jurisdiction where the abortion she is having is legal and free. Therefore, surely at that point she becomes eligible for free treatment?

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 06/02/2015 19:35

I hope that makes sense, I was thinking as I typed.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 06/02/2015 19:37

*Bumbly, dear, did you know that President Kennedy was the fastest random speaker in the world with upwards of 350 words per minute. Imagine that?!

PetulaGordino · 06/02/2015 19:40

Yes saskia I agree. I think it was just last year that they had a test case though and it was clarifies that women from NI are not entitled to free abortion treatment on the NHS. It's a disgrace.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 06/02/2015 19:40

No, VDB just offered a different website for the same group. And no, it doesn't, anti-choicers prefer to stand about outside clinics being a pest to everyone, some of them even get prosecuted for it, thank the fairies.. But there's no point in engaging with your irrationality further.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 06/02/2015 19:41

More on the costs issue - I believe hospitals can reimburse travel costs in some circumstances. I think it could be argued that having to make a long and ultimately arduous journey to receive medical treatment could be see as exceptional enough to warrant the reimbursement of travel costs.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 06/02/2015 19:41

Saskia, that's a good point actually, although, it doesn't help women in Ireland itself Sad

MoominKoalaAndMiniMoom · 06/02/2015 19:42

bumbley there's a difference between a foetus with the potential to become a child, with no memories at all but more importantly, it is unborn and so is still a pregnancy, than a born, living child or someone with disabilities.

If you genuinely cannot see the difference, I fear for you.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 06/02/2015 19:42

Petula that is shocking! In effect that says women in NI are not full citizens of the UK.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 06/02/2015 19:45

"Saskia, that's a good point actually, although, it doesn't help women in Ireland itself "

No, it doesn't :(

MoominKoalaAndMiniMoom · 06/02/2015 19:45

the "men are all out to get us" brigade

saskia dear

The more of your posts I read bumbley, the more I suspect you're either an MRA in disguise, or someone who has a real, deep-seated issue with other women.

Enormouse · 06/02/2015 19:50

Bpas offer a reduced rate to NI/ROI women and I believe Marie stopes help with transport to and from the airport. Still with the travel costs and potentially the hotel costs it's expensive.

I'll see if I can find the fees.

PetulaGordino · 06/02/2015 19:50

Here

m.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27325363

PintofCiderPlease · 06/02/2015 19:52

THIS is what women who are not permitted to have abortions are forced to endure.

Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

•exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
•altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
•nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
•heartburn and indigestion
•constipation
•weight gain
•dizziness and light-headedness
•bloating, swelling, fluid retention
•hemmorhoids
•abdominal cramps
•yeast infections
•congested, bloody nose
•acne and mild skin disorders
•skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
•mild to severe backache and strain
•increased headaches
•difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
•increased urination and incontinence
•bleeding gums
•pica
•breast pain and discharge
•swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain
•difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy
•inability to take regular medications
•shortness of breath
•higher blood pressure
•hair loss or increased facial/body hair
•tendency to anemia
•curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities
•infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
(pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
•extreme pain on delivery
•hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
•continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section major surgery is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)

Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:
•stretch marks (worse in younger women)
•loose skin
•permanent weight gain or redistribution
•abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
•pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
•changes to breasts
•increased foot size
•varicose veins
•scarring from episiotomy or c-section
•other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
•increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
•loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
•higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
•newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)

Occasional complications and side effects:
•complications of episiotomy
•spousal/partner abuse
•hyperemesis gravidarum
•temporary and permanent injury to back
•severe scarring requiring later surgery
(especially after additional pregnancies)
•dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
•pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
•eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
•gestational diabetes
•placenta previa
•anemia (which can be life-threatening)
•thrombocytopenic purpura
•severe cramping
•embolism (blood clots)
•medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
•diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
•mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
•serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
•hormonal imbalance
•ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
•broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
•hemorrhage and
•numerous other complications of delivery
•refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
•aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
•severe post-partum depression and psychosis
•research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
•research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
•research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease

Less common (but serious) complications:
•peripartum cardiomyopathy
•cardiopulmonary arrest
•magnesium toxicity
•severe hypoxemia/acidosis
•massive embolism
•increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
•molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
(like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
•malignant arrhythmia
•circulatory collapse
•placental abruption
•obstetric fistula

More permanent side effects:
•future infertility
•permanent disability
•death.

leedy · 06/02/2015 19:52

Baby, I'm so so sorry you had to go through that.

PetulaGordino · 06/02/2015 19:52

Sorry that wasn't a response to your post enormouse!

PintofCiderPlease · 06/02/2015 19:53

This is an incredibly interesting article on the catholic church and abortion and contraception.

Enormouse · 06/02/2015 19:54

Let me think how much I had to pay.

£100 towards the procedure, thankfully ASN gave me a grant towards the rest
£50 flights
£80 for the taxi from my home to the airport and back
£20 for the taxi to and from the airport
£20 for food and drinks at the airport.

Enormouse · 06/02/2015 19:57

the bpas price list

Oh I forgot the consultation fee.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 06/02/2015 19:58

ASN do amazing stuff. Once we have the spare room sorted, we're going to see if we can volunteer to accommodate women who need an overnight stay. Staying with a family who will care for you has got to be better than being alone in a soulless hotel for a night.