To hope we look back on this in horror?

[Fanfeckintastic]

I'm in Ireland and recently watched a documentary about Irish women going to England for abortions because it's illegal over here. I was saying to DP that hopefully one day we'll be able to look back on this with the same horror we do at the fact interracial couples were once not allowed to marry, homophobia etc but he doesn't think it's comparable because interracial marriages and homosexuality etc involves consenting adults. In my opinion abortion involves a consenting adult, that's it.

I'm not saying they're the exact same thing but am I unreasonable to hope that one day we'll look back at the fact it was illegal in my country to have a choice about what we do with our own uterus?

[Dawndonnaagain]

In what way is it relevant bumbley?

[Baddz]

Termination isn't euthanasia.
Hence the different lexicographal and legal terms.

[Dawndonnaagain]

Ahh, but we've been here before Lurcio. I report in the hopes that she will not be allowed to post her heartless, relentless, repugnant bile again.

[Anonynonny]

I'm sure in the future all those women who are in favour of forcing other women to carry pregnancies and give birth against their will, will welcome the fact that the technology will probably get to a point where an embryo can be safely removed and implanted into a different womb.

I trust they'll be first in the queue to offer their wombs for use. Seeing as how an embryo is so much more important than them. When the technical possibility to put their wombs where their mouths are is available, I bet they'll suddenly realise that their autonomy and lives are worth something after all.

[PetulaGordino]

The way that women in NI and the ROI on this issue is disgraceful and misogynist. I wish we could be allowed to keep to the topic but sadly the derailers on this subject are very persistent. Hopefully not as much as those who want justice for women though

[Enormouse]

Let's get back to the topic and ignore the derailers petula .
I'm not going to be drowned out, I doubt baby is or any other fair minded, compassionate posters.

I have been truly overwhelmed by the support and kindness on this thread. Thank you all

[Baddz]

Mouse.
You are a fucking legend.
That is all.
:)

[Enormouse]

badders

[Enormouse]

Ok, I've had about 3 double scotches and watched the documentary.

How is this right or fair? It's not. Why did I have to go through this?

[Baddz]

It's not right or fair.
And in the future people won't believe the barbarity of it :(

[Enormouse]

I'm sorry. I didn't expect to have such a strong reaction to this.

[Dawndonnaagain]

(((hugs))) mouse

[leedy]

It's not right or fair at all. It's fucking barbaric.

[PetulaGordino]

I finally managed to watch the programme today. It struck me how brave the women talking about it are, it must be almost impossible to talk about.

Also the anti-abortion people at the beginning were all so young! None of them had children yet. I have regularly heard women on MN saying how much the importance of the right to choose struck them after they had had children. They understood more fully how important it was for a woman to want to gestate and birth and raise a child.

Those protestors outside the clinic... I have no words. A woman spends a fortune in money and time, travelling from NI or ROI, likely tired, emotional, in need of support and care, to be met with that? The final insult to remind them that everyone has an opinion on what they should be doing with their body

[leedy]

The more vehement anti-abortion folks here (judging by attendance at their events, etc.) seem to be mostly either retired people or young teenagers.

[ScrumpyBetty]

All I can say is I'm so glad that vile people like bumbley are in the minority on MN, and I hope that views will change in real life and extend to in Northern Ireland. Many posters have expressed views much more eloquently than I ever could OP- YANBU X 100000 one day we will look back in horror and wonder what the hell was going on to allow abortion to be illegal for so long in NI.

[tobysmum77]

yes I've just watched it, 'pro lifers' are just teenagers who see everything as black and white with no life experience. Unless the programme was biased I felt they were a minority.

[leedy]

May also be skewed a bit by the fact that the various "pro life" orgs here tend to shove the younger prettier members up front/to speak at things to try and make themselves look "young and relevant" - the attendance at their rallies definitely skews towards "elderly devout religious people" but all their PR shots show young trendy girls up the front holding banners.

Though yeah, they've always had a teenage element. Friends of my sister in school were involved in the early days of Youth Defence and it was like a cult - classmates being invited over to a "party" that turned out to be a screening of anti-choice videos, sister's friends deciding not to take up their college courses so they could devote themselves to the cause (and also marry young to other YD members and have lots of children), etc. All very odd. Definite dynastic thing going on as well - eg the Mac Mathuna family: comeheretome.com/2012/07/29/una-bean-mhic-mhathuna-40-years-of-reactionary-politics/

[WonderingWillow]

mouse it isn't fair. I'm sorry this happened to you this way. I'm really sorry xx

[PuffinsAreFictitious]

Yikes leedy that looks horrendous, surely borderline illegal???

Anyway, this has galvanised me to contact ASN and offer our spare room. I'll just have to do that up before the dining room. Women are more important than bloody wallpaper.

[Anonynonny]

I really wish people would stop using the term "pro-life" when referring to anti-abortionists.

It is purely and simply a propaganda term, dreamt up to ensure that the message of forcing vulnerable women to endure pregnancy and birth, looks more positive than it is. "pro-birth" "pro-forced pregnancy" "anti-abortion" "pro taking control of women's bodies away from women" all sound really negative. Pro Life sounds like motherhood and apple pie - who could possibly oppose life? What's the opposite? Pro death! Every time we use the term pro-life, we are buying into the parameters of the debate set by those who want to imprison women who take control of their own bodies in a way these people disapprove of. Because that's what pro-life actually means in the real world: it means sending women to prison (or ensuring that they die) for having illegal abortions. They don't care if desperate schoolgirls die on illegal abortionist's tables, how the fuck is that pro-life? We should not be using their terminology, it's just wrong.

[PetulaGordino]

Leedy the documentary showed the anti-abortion group who were going out on the streets (mostly teenage and early twenties women from what I could tell) being led/directed by a middle-aged man before they were sent off to protest

[itsbetterthanabox]

Anonynonny.
I agree with you. That's why a lot of people, including me, call them anti-choice activists.

[80schild]

I have just read the last 5 pages of this thread and I am pretty convinced that it is possible to be somewhere in the middle. The reasons why a woman chooses to have an abortion are not always black and white, which is where the pro-life activists get it wrong.

I had an abortion many years ago and at the time I didn't feel guilty - it felt like the right thing to do at the time. I had informed myself and was clear what would happen. I also remember the 14 year old girl next to me in floods of tears afterwards - I would never have asked what her case was, but I am sure that it must have been a forced abortion by her family.

Where I struggle with choice activists is their argument about a woman having the right to choose what happens to her body. In most cases a woman has the right to choose whether she has sex with a given man, she also has the right to choose whether she insists he wears a condom. It is not like a baby suddenly appears from nowhere and a woman has to choose "do I keep the baby?" free will starts a long way before that point and a woman can say.

I said at the time of my abortion it didn't affect me. But 10 years later when I tried to get pregnant and struggled it felt really wrong and that took a little while to work my head round.

We need abortion to be legal as for some people it is the only option but I think it is also fair to say that there are people who would be better off having their children and there needs to be support for these people. I don't think I have heard many people saying they regret having their kids after they are born.

Maybe the answer is not making abortion more difficult but better education and more discussion about practical matters rather than heated debates.

[PetulaGordino]

You do understand that being pro-choice is exactly that - so also supportive of any woman who wants to continue a pregnancy regardless of circumstances. That is what bodily autonomy is about. And I don't know anyone who is pro-choice who doesn't also advocate good sex education and comprehensive support for women and their families should they decide to continue a pregnancy

I can totally understand why it must have been difficult when struggling to conceive ten years later