To hope we look back on this in horror?

[Fanfeckintastic]

I'm in Ireland and recently watched a documentary about Irish women going to England for abortions because it's illegal over here. I was saying to DP that hopefully one day we'll be able to look back on this with the same horror we do at the fact interracial couples were once not allowed to marry, homophobia etc but he doesn't think it's comparable because interracial marriages and homosexuality etc involves consenting adults. In my opinion abortion involves a consenting adult, that's it.

I'm not saying they're the exact same thing but am I unreasonable to hope that one day we'll look back at the fact it was illegal in my country to have a choice about what we do with our own uterus?

...as an aside, Canada today voted to legalise doctor assisted suicide.

More autonomy for all....good.

Bumbly no you didn't answer it, you evaded it. I'd ask again, but you just waffle around the subject without admitting that yes, you are in favour of backstreet abortions. You must be, you wish to ban the procedure being performed legally, and as you can't possibly be naive enough to believe that will bring an end to abortions you must feel that it's okay for desperate women to suffer and possibly die completely unnecessarily.

Of course, it will only be desperate poor women, rich women will be able to pay to bypass our system and still have access to safe abortions.

Baby - I'm sorry xxx

That's good news about Canada - we should all have the right to decide what happens to OUR bodies

Bumbley you don't like anyone who thinks differently - a brilliant example is you 'somebody who had a still birth...' 'point' - except when somebody who HAS had a still birth comes on and still disagrees with you - then you dismiss their argument

which is - are people who have experienced still birth only allowed an opinion if it's the same as yours?

I've met many pro lifers - I have not met many as cold hearted and lacking in compassion as you appear to be

bumbley No, if you believe that a woman should be forced to carry a foetus to term and give birth to it, you believe the rights of a foetus outweigh those of a woman.

At least have the guts to be honest about how you feel, rather than pretending you care about women's rights. No, it's more important that you can sit there and control what women do with their bodies, so that you can say "Look at me saving little babies", but let me guess - doing fuck all after those babies have been born?

Baby, I can assure that my sympathy for you and your daughter was genuine both then and now. If you want to disregard it then go ahead but don't then accuse me of being unsympathetic.

No saskia, I said I disagreed with them too.

gordy, I didn't disagree with them - just pointed out that because they aren't offended doesn't mean no one is. In the same way as some people who have had abortions aren't offended by pro-life people posting their opinions and don't try to shut down discussion.

I'm in no way cold hearted or lacking in compassion. You're just reading it that way and I can't do anything about that.

bumbley how can you say categorically that what I and assassin and countless other women have had to go through or will go through is 'fine' or 'right' or 'fair'?

Because it's not. We shouldn't have to suffer like this. We should be allowed to end our pregnancies and grieve without judgement. And be treated in a humane way by the powers that be.

FWIW I do agree with euthanasia and assisted suicide because in those cases it is only OUR BODIES that are affected.

Moomin, no, I believe that the right to LIFE outweighs the right to decide not to be pregnant.

Enormouse, do you think parents should be allowed to decide to euthanise their babies if they are born with or develop disabilities? Those parents also go through the pain of finding out that their child has a disability and may be in pain and may not live very long. Should they be allowed to end their child's life and grieve?

Bumbley so what's your stance on life support being withdrawn? Someone other than the person on life support would have to make the decision to switch it off. By your logic the person on life support should be kept alive artificially forever as their right to life is sacrosanct.

Bumbly you disagree with legal abortions, it doesn't stop people having them. The same would be true if abortion wasn't legal. You do realise that prior to the abortion act women had abortions? It wasn't something they decided to do because it was now legal? And assuming you do know that, why would you want to put another woman in the position of having the procedure carried out by an unqualified person in unsafe and unsanitary conditions?

I don't like to second guess other posters, the medium of text often lacks subtlety so it's easy to misinterpret someone's motives, but given your persistent waffling and offensive remarks, I can't help but think that you really dislike other women.

If you mean in utero, then yes I do. I wouldn't want a child to suffer or be born in pain. And spend however long it lives in pain.

If I conceived a child that was so fatally ill then yes I would terminate. Out of love for it. I would want to say goodbye to it and be allowed to grieve. I wouldn't want to prolong that child's suffering or mine. It doesn't mean I would love that baby any less. Or that it was any less wanted.

What of the women who've forced into pregnancy? They're not going to be allowed to just hand over their babies for adoption, are they?

I had an abortion in the late 70s. It was horrible; I had to stay overnight in the clinic as my doctor wouldn't agree to be available should I need him overnight. Far worse for the two Irish women who were staying overnight with me, as they weren't even in their own country.

It is barbaric. I hope enlightenment comes soon.

It's like a banishment isn't it? Forcing a woman to go abroad for what is basic medical treatment. She is rejected by her own home and separated from her family for the duration, travelling alone while worried and after a medical procedure, and has to pay for the pleasure

I should add, whilst worried and possibly distressed and in pain

Baby I am so very sorry you went through that. I also remember the circumstances under which a someone eventually, and grudgingly, offered half-hearted commiserations after pages and pages of people begging her to do so, it was quite a shocking thread. You can't expect better from someone who has likened abortion to murder though, can you?

Such a shame that yet another potentially interesting thread has turned in to a rehash of every 1000 post strawmanfest.

bumbley so what about when the woman's life is in danger? Or when continuing with the pregnancy will drive her to suicide? Neither of these situations are imaginary or hypothetical; they have and continue to happen, and will happen in increasing number if abortion was to be banned.

If you really believe the right to life of the foetus and the right to life of the woman are equal (which is ridiculous, that you think the right of something with the potential to be a life, with no memories, no-one who relies on them, no responsibilities - outweighs the rights of an already-living person with memories and family and friends who love her, other children who potentially rely on her etc), what happens when the woman's life is in danger?

"Such a shame that yet another potentially interesting thread has turned in to a rehash of every 1000 post strawmanfest."

Isn't it puffins? You can't help but feel that the distraction from discussing how real, powerful men out there demand rights over women's bodies is perhaps deliberate

Now now, Petula, we wouldn't want to go about naming the problem now, people might have to examine their consciences.

The mere thought of us turning the clock back to the days when a woman had no choice but to visit a man with dubious medical skills and take the risk of permanent disability, sterilisation and even death, because if she went to a doctor or hospital to get treatment, she'd have been prosecuted, chills me to the marrow. Unless of course..... no, this is silly..... unless they want to punish women? No, that would be unthinkable......

No Enormouse, I didn't mean in utero - that's why I said euthanise and not abort/terminate.

baby, I don't have a problem with it if they are brain dead.

No one begged me to offer condolences and someone begging me to would not make me say something I didn't genuinely feel nor have i compared abortion to murder. Stop making up stories Puffins. I know how you like to think of me and present me to others but it's simply not true.

Moomin, if the woman's life is in danger then I think an attempt should be made to save both lives but if it is not possible then the woman is going to take priority. I've said that several times before on this thread and others. Do you think a child's life is worth less than an adults? Do you think that because they have fewer memories, no one relying on them, no responsibilities that they are worth less? What about people with disabilties?

"Isn't it puffins? You can't help but feel that the distraction from discussing how real, powerful men out there demand rights over women's bodies is perhaps deliberate"

Quite.

Have read the whole thread - some really compelling arguments that reinforce my position as a pro-choice "extremist".

Also some tragic, awful stories - I am so sorry for those of you who've had to go through those awful experiences.

One point that I don't think has been addressed. How do the pro-lifers who support a significant lowering of the limit of gestation up to which terminations may be carried out - I think 9 weeks was mentioned upthread - feel about the possibility (even likelihood, I think) that women would rush into a termination before the time limit, when if they had more time to consider their options, they might in fact change their mind, or their circumstances change, and go on to have a healthy baby?

What if that limit was applied equally to healthy and disabled foetuses - how many couples at risk of a severe genetic abnormality would choose to terminate before ultrasounds were able to determine whether the foetus did in fact have a disability?

Placing arbitrary time limits on choice cuts both ways.

Sigh...there really is no point in trying to converse with the 'men are all out to get us brigade'.

We still have nearly 500 posts to get back on point? If, you know, we wanted to?

True Penguins.

If NI is going to continue to bar women from accessing necessary medical care, then maybe they should be given some form of NI relief to mitigate for that?

And Life only offers help to women under 25, according to it's website, which is better than they used to be, but not much use to all those women older than 25 who also need the help, presumably, they can just fuck off though.

"Sigh...there really is no point in trying to converse with the 'men are all out to get us brigade'."

Does that mean you're going go away and let the rest of us discuss the subject like rational adults?