AIBU to want to go boo hoo hahaha when men say they feel excluded by the the term "feminist"

[GoddessWhoWalksEarthAsWoman]

Just wondering if anyone else thinks like me...Go.

I should add...they're not my uncle's friends any more. They informed him he wasn't welcome in their lives now they were Mothers and nor were any other men.

Urgh! I give up with strike outs! Ignore the learning comment.

Acquired I came to Mumsnet 6 years ago...I stated then that I was not a Feminist. That I thought Feminism should not even be a "thing" and that the title was damaging to the cause.

I learned that I was wrong. There are others on here who know more than I do and speak with more clarity. Hopefully they might come here soon and explain better.

The thing is, AcquiredTaste and Catzeyess, most of the things that disadvantage men in our current society such as being ridiculed for showing any feminine traits, not being allowed to express emotion except though violence, not getting custody of children, poor mental health, high suicide rates etc etc, are all the result of hypermasculinity and our patriarchal society. This boxes women and men very tightly into stereotypes which rarely fit anyone comfortably. So as feminism breaks down the patriarchy and gender stereotypes to free women, most men will find that these problems they face will disappear too. Feminism is fighting for men, albeit indirectly. It saddens me how many people fail to realise this and think that feminism is being unfair to men. Feminist are far more fair to men than most other people in society. This quote sums it up for me.

"The thing is, it's patriarchy that says men are stupid and monolithic and unchanging and incapable. It's patriarchy that says that men have animalistic instincts and just can't stop themselves from harassing and assaulting. It's patriarchy that says men can only be attracted by certain qualities, can only have particular kinds of responses, can only experience the world in narrow ways. Feminism holds that men are capable of more – are more than that."
Chally Kacelnik

Sorry if my post was confusing Annie I totally agree with you!

We need feminist totally to benefit men and women. What we don't need is men being bashed in the process.

MrsTawdry, of course a woman knows better about her own gender, that's stating the obvious really. It's very easy to say 'oh women need a voice' - fair enough, but it's feminism as a whole I have an issue with. It's not as black and white as 'fighting the male oppression' is it.

It's OK not be a feminist, oppression is the evil of this world not what bits you have between your legs.

I've never met anyone who felt excluded by feminism or who thought that it'd gone too far who wasn't a shining example of why feminism is sorely needed

100% this

Not "bashed" catz, but many men will have to shift over and give up their privilege in order for things to be equal. That is what those men who whinge about feminism excluding them are reaction against

I find that most men are fine with feminism until it starts to encroach upon their privilege. Then it's 'gone too far'.

Notyou your attitude is naive in the extreme. Do you think the world will "right itself" alone? Do you imagine that pleasant discussion around the tea table will change the habits of centuries? And why do you not want to be a Feminist?

Because you disregard genitalia...the bits between your legs as you call it? Or do you disregard the fact that women are still not equal?

I dunno that seems a bit simplistic to me.

Genuine question - How does feminism encroach on male privilege and men are fightint back? I can't think of any examples (maybe I'm lucky to live around men who don't think like this?)

I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the topic, but when people worry about men being victims of rape and domestic violence too, how much of it is male on male attacks?

Most men I know don't feel excluded by feminism. They aren't thick; they are aware its still very much a mans world and on the whole, they think feminism is a worthy cause.

My son is still in junior school and he regularly rolls his eyes and makes comments when we are watching a film where women are objectified, caricatured and cast in supporting roles whilst the men that "do things". He wants to know why there isn't a Black Widow marvel movie and why Harry Hill says "running like a girl" on You've been Framed. I don't press Feminism on him only give him my perspective but he is smart enough to realise that in the media, women are there for decoration and whilst it makes me angry, it just confuses the hell out of him.

MrsTawdry, do you think women will solve all the problems? No, and it's typical of feminism to start with the insults as soon as anyone disagrees with any of it. 'Stupid, uneducated, naive', all words used to describe someone who says 'equality, not feminism'.

I don't disregard that women still find oppression around the world, but in day to day life, especially in Britain, no I don't feel oppressed due to my gender. I have had inappropriate comments directed at me, but I stand up for myself. I'm not a victim due to my gender.

The truth of the matter is, one of the main reason I'm not a feminist is judgement. Because I have never seen men judge women the way women judge women. Especially if that woman says she's not a feminist (not that she has to explain herself but is always forced into it otherwise she's 'naive'). The hypocrisy in itself makes me turn away from it.

Women's equality should start with her being able to say what she belives in, without being judged like a bloody disgrace to womanhood.

Well, to take Shumbtucker's example of Marvel superheroes. When people (mainly women) point out the stupidity of the poses the female characters get into (check out the tumblr Escher Girls) or the skimpiness of their costumes, or why isn't there a Black Widow movie (excellent point Shumbtucker jnr), the howls of outrage from male comic book fans are deafening. It would "ruin" the comic if women were as fully clothed as the male heroes. We are being "silly" if we depict the male characters in the same back-snapping tits AND arse to camera poses that the female ones are constantly drawn in. Black Widow is only a 'minor' character and 'lame' so no point in making a movie about her... it goes on. And that's in a subject that, much as I love Marvel comics, is a niche interest.

My own brother, bless him, treats the existence of the Bechdel test as some kind of personal affront and tried to tell me that 'they' would be stopping any 'decent' action film if they had their way. These all powerful film-making feminists...

It's when there are protests over Ched Evans' guilt and men (and some sad women) line up to make hyperbolic statements like 'so no man can ever have sex with a woman after a few drinks now, for fear of being branded a rapist, eh? Eh??' that it gets serious. You only have to read the comments section under any piece about women to see the poison that an awful lot of men are hiding.

I've just googled for these "extreme feminists" disrupting a male DV conference, as it's not something I've ever heard of. Apparently it was in Canada in 1999. The only link I could find (on my third google attempt) was from a self-confessed MRA and the comments beneath the Youtube video of the disruption (which I can't watch to judge either way as my stupid laptop keeps crashing Flash) are the most paranoid woman-hating craziness you could wish to read. Given this is the ONLY incident I could find evidence of, I'd say that extreme feminists are far rarer than hate-filled men who continually bleat when the spotlight is taken from them for 5 seconds.

Catz

The way family law in this country has/is changing very quickly, with the child's rights now firmly in the front and centre of every decision.

In very many relationships, women are usually the primary caregiver, so when relationships fail, women tend to get residency. Women now know the law is (sometimes) on the side of the child so are less likely to put up with bs, missed contact, lack of maintenance payment.

This is a direct blow to male privilege: men are traditionally at the head of the family. Women need men's protection to thrive and survive. It is a man's place to call the shots both on the women and children in his life.

Men have responded to this assault on their privilege by organising themselves into groups to call for fathers' rights, blackening the names of the many, many lone female parents who have bent over backwards to make things fair, brought the name of the British justice and family court system into disrepute.

And when that didn't work... well a fair few of them decided to kill their exes. Some of them even killed their children. That's how men fight back. Maybe not the men you know (I hope not!), definitely not the men I know (thankfully) - but men.

^ of course, how you solve that problem for the benefit of men and women is through feminism. If men take on 50% of the childcare, decisions on residency etc then have^ to become more nuanced...

My own particular theory is that is has a lot to do with the jobs market being opened up to more competition. There used to be large swathes of work where women simply did not compete with men for the available jobs, and I am sure that in many of them there was a culture that men would do well in a job and progress up the career leader without actually being that good and in many ways quite lazy and ineffectual.

The same argument goes for exam results being better for girls now because continuous assessment favours them. Of course many subjects are still exam based or interview/test based, as is university entrance in many subjects, and continuous assessment mimics what you have to do in a job ie work hard on a consistent basis.

I think it actually has far more to do with prevailing sexist attitudes that men are brought up with holding them back - that they will somehow succeed because they are men and they deserve to, rather than achieving what they need to do so.

Just a personal viewpoint.

We've seen that gender discrimination goes both ways, we even have people who think it's still acceptable in 2015 to discriminate by judging all men as potential threats just because other men have raped and killed in the past. This way of thinking is irrational because a persons gender tells you nothing about what they may be like. I would never say that all women are potential violent thugs because I've seen a few women assault people. While a woman in the street MIGHT be a violent thug, I have no way of knowing that just because of her gender. I know violent men and non violent women but I also know non violent men and violent women.

Burke you would have to wait a long time, possibly centuries, for gender discrimination to even approach evening up between both genders. Its still a very sexist world out there.

Why would someone's own judgment bother you? Its a personal thing, like any other value judgement a person makes. Statistically, far more males than females are violent offenders (we can use conviction rates to prove this) so I don't see the logic of your argument.

The biggest backlash against women is going on in the US right now, with more and more legislature trying to control women's bodies - whether that be access to free contraception, restrictions on abortion or just sex education.

judging all men as potential threats just because other men have raped and killed in the past

And in the present. Men have not ceased raping and killing. And with your permission, but also without, I'll trust my own instincts about whether to judge someone as potentially violent. I do not have to associate with someone I think is a danger to make you feel good.

burke1 I'm just going to carry on with the comedian theme, but I can't remember who this was.

There's a male comedian who does an excellent bit along the lines of 'You know how we're always going on about 'bitches be CRAZY!' and you hear stories about all these crazy bitches and you're all 'WOAH' well I was wondering how come nobody ever tells 'yo your man be CRAZY' stories? And then I remembered, oh yeah, ladies, if your man be crazy, then you're DEAD'.

Not sure you'll understand what I'm trying to say here, but hopefully you will - I'm referred to your post about judging people by gender, and why, perhaps, it's not quite the right analogy to claim men are spooked by random women on the street.

It's perfectly rational for women to see all men as potential threats. Rapists are men and they don't wear badges. The pitifully low conviction rates means there is a significant number of men walking around who have already raped a woman. Also, if you look at the comments on the Guardian, Telegraph etc. about the announcement by the DPP about consent in rape, you will see that there is a very significant number of men who don't seem to comprehend that they need to be sure a woman wants to be penetrated before they go ahead and do it.

But for you the most important thing is that your feelings are not hurt.

The biggest backlash against women is going on in the US right now

Some of the attitudes that are freely expressed in public discourse would be laughable if they were not actually being taken seriously. Recently a man who is expected to be a presidential candidate (and who has been in the past) was complaining publicly about women swearing in the workplace.

And yes, since the Republicans have taken control of Congress, we are already experiencing renewed attacks on reproductive rights. And it's not even been a month yet.