AIBU to want to go boo hoo hahaha when men say they feel excluded by the the term "feminist"

[GoddessWhoWalksEarthAsWoman]

Just wondering if anyone else thinks like me...Go.

I'd tut to myself, sigh and think "it's not all about the men!".

Burke if a man is sitting on an empty train carriage and a lets say four young women get on a little drunk and start whispering amongst themselves and looking over at him he would feel the same fear and panic rising as a woman would in the reverse situation

It is not that we judge every male and see them as potential rapists it's that woman are far more likely to be sexually assaulted and often the assault is by men we know and often have trusted

Is Judging All Men as Potential Rapists a thing at all? I mean, is it a great problem? Who measures it? Does it stop men getting jobs on a large scale, or stop them doing activities, or stop them walking down quiet roads in rough areas in the dead of night?

Well, actually it probably does stop some men doing the latter. Not because all men are potential rapists, but because its common sense to be aware of the threat of attack in certain circumstances, whether you are male or female.

Itsnotme

You said I don't disregard that women still find oppression around the world, but in day to day life, especially in Britain, no I don't feel oppressed due to my gender. I have had inappropriate comments directed at me, but I stand up for myself. I'm not a victim due to my gender

Note all the I's in that statement.

I I I

Not ALL women can stand up for themselves.

Some are shy. Some are too damaged by abuse to think never mind stand up for themselves...Some have special needs and SOME live in societies where they can't even VOTE.

Woman up for fucks sake and see beyond yourself.

The reason so many men call themselves egalitarians, is because egalitarianism works on retaining a status quo of equality.

We don't have that status quo; we don't have equality. The reason we need feminism is because women need to be brought up to that level of equality before anyone can truly be an egalitarian. And there are a significant number of men who don't like that, because it means losing their privilege.

Yes, they're very much the lads who don't want to hear about racism because they "don't see colour".

Yep, same for men. Except no one cares about a man who can't stand up fot himself, he's a pussy according to today's double standards. It's my prerogative to be selfish, at least I'm not judgmetal about others.

I KNOW there's still inequalities in the world, for women, different races, religions, the LGBT community. It would be ignorant to think otherwise. However, you called me naive and seemed to want an explanation of my veiws. So I gave my view, from my point, which means using 'ME' and 'I' a lot. You still found offense and a way to be rude and judgemental about me. If to 'woman up' means to be insulting, rude and judgemental, I'd rather stay as I am.

I'm quite happy to realise that my view of equality before feminism is in the very small minority. I'm quite happy to have a good debate about it. I would never resort to insults to the other side, because I know ultimately we all want fairness. Just because you prioritise women's rights above all others, Mrs tawdry, don't put other women down because they aren't the same. I think that goes against the basic rule of feminism, wouldn't you agree?

Actually Moomin that's a very perceptive statement - I hadn't thought about it like that. An egalitarian society would somehow bring women 'up' to equality without men having to give their privilege away. Which of course is never gonna happen. So men who talk about it really mean - yeah, come on, have what I have, but I'm not giving it away. You're on your own there, sister!'

It's basically pulling the ladder up - ism...

Excellent post Moomin

My husband describes himself as a feminist, he doesn't belong to a club or wear a badge, its just how he feels, next time someone says this to you tell them to grow up!

Except no one cares about a man who can't stand up fot himself, he's a pussy according to today's double standards.

This calling men "pussies" -(horrible term in itself - I rarely see it in the UK or on MN)- is a result of society rigid gender roles for men and women, and hyper-masculinity expected of men that feminism fights against.

I have had inappropriate comments directed at me, but I stand up for myself. I'm not a victim due to my gender

^This comment you made is a very subtle form of victim blaming. It's saying, "hey, women should be able to stand up to comments like that! I do! Not my fault some women are victims!" It neglects the fact that women can be justified in being scared when subjected to inappropriate comments by a man - he is highly likely to be physically stronger than her, for a start. He can overpower her, hurt her. If she works with him, he is likely to be in a higher position than her - he may have power over her actual employment status. It's really not so simple as "oh, just stand up to it!" Some women can't.

Feminism generally has 2 lines of thought from what I see:

1. That women should have equality with men as all differences are created by society - so equal pay for the same work, equal consideration for jobs, stop allocated tasks and jobs in terms of gender (ie why do women (even those with paid employment) do 70% of the housework?)
2. That men and women have fundamental differences but the "difference" for women means disadvantage: so that when people become parents the expectation is the woman will reduce her hours, she will stop work, she will do most caring whereas the expectation is men will work longer to earn more. So women end up losing out on pay and men lose out on seeing their kids as much as their partners do.

We also have an issue that when feminism is talked about many people say that low paid work, part time hours etc is the individual woman's "choice" yet if you review all the media within our society you will see very quickly that women stopping a career to care for children is an expected meme. The number of articles about parenting and childcare lead with what the WOMAN should be doing to solve this problem - as though society and the men had no contribution and were somehow peripheral.

Men who feel "excluded" from feminism have missed the point - all they need to do is start talking about how they will look after their children, flex their working hours, do more housework...get rid of the attitude that men's sole role is "breadwinner" and his parental status does not alter that at all, yet women's parental status defines their entire life course.

DH is still told he is "amazing" because he used to change DD's nappies. I didn't get told I was amazing for doing that- because it is expected of me that's why, yet for DH it is entirely optional.

Oh, and if men want to join in the feminist debate they can stop telling DD that girls are no good at maths - yes they bloody are!

TheChandler of course if someone wants to hold a bigoted opinion it's their right and I would never say that you shouldn't be allowed to hold them. But if they express those views they can't really complain if they are criticized for them.

It's a sad reflection that even though it's 2015 and a lot has been done for gender equality, there are people who think it's acceptable to say to see all of one gender as a "potential threat" just because they are that specific gender, or suggesting that "rapists are men" which ignores the crimes committed by female rapists/abusers/murderers.

For me the most important thing is that you don't judge me or any other man based solely on the fact that we are men. If you do, then you are entitled to hold that sexist belief but you should expect to be pulled up on it if you go around expressing such a view in modern society, where most people have realized it is no longer acceptable to make assumptions about people based solely on their gender or skin colour. I would never assume that all white females are potential violent thugs just because I've previously seen a white girl beat someone up. I judge you on what I see, not what other women have done.

it's not feminists who are doing the judging and the stereotyping - that is patriarchal society

Sabrina, your second point it's taken slightly out of context. It was directed at another poster/reply. I can stand up for myself. If an individual woman can't, I don't 'blame her', it has taken a long time for me to be able to do it myself. I personally don't believe a persons mental strength/lack of comes from gender. Some of the cruelest, bullying, violent people I've met in my life have been women. I've even seen women use the abuse/victim card when it was them who were the abusers.

Perhaps this is why I have such a dissalutioned view of feminism. Either way, I have no great issue against feminism, it's just not part of my life. I will say for the last time, this does not mean I don't recognise inequality for women, it doesn't anger me, it does just like other inequalities do. I just view it in a different way and in reply to the original OP, no I do not find it funny if a man feels left out in feminism, maybe it's something he doesn't understand. Maybe he has found genuine flaws in it. Maybe we all need to listen to each other a bit more instead of trying to find offense in everything.

itsnotmeitsyou1 that's a good point. To many people who think they are correct spend so much time trying to "educate" people, the assumption being if you disagree with what I say then you're uneducated/stupid. Listening to each others opinions and thoughts instead of assuming that we are automatically correct is key.

i don't know any feminists who deny that women can be cruel or unpleasant. i don't know any feminists who think that women lack mental strength as a group. that comment was about the context and social structures that can make it more difficult for a woman to speak out, as the risks for them can feel too great.

i think women have done a lot of listening to men, and still do. far more than many men are prepared to listen to women. if they would do that then we might get somewhere

feminists are among the most self-questioning people i know

Thank you Burke, however as I've said no one wants to hear you as soon as you say 'actually, I don't agree with feminism as a whole'. It tends to turn into a shouting match where nothing you say gets heard. It doesn't matter if there are good and bad points to each side (as with any decent debate). Feminism at the moment cannot be argued with, therefore and flaws or inconsistencies cannot be addressed. Which is a shame, because we can all agree the fight for female equality around the world is far from done.

Yes, but Petula - do women listen to other women? An example of this is the page three debate. So many women say it's degrading (the same who would agree that breastfeeding in public is not an issue). The women who do it though don't feel degraded. They are in control of their bodies, get paid well, and are happy to do it. Now I couldn't care less if there are boobs in a picture or boobs used to feed babies (that's the brilliant thing about them, everyone loves them it seems). Is it OK for one group of women to tell another what to do with her body?

feminists don't agree with each other on everything, so if you think you are alone in disagreeing with aspects of it then you are wrong. however, if you agree that women do not have equality and that something should be done about it then fundamentally you agree with feminists

How many men actually want to be feminists in the first place? And the ones who have claimed they are feminist supporters have only been doing it because they thought it would help them get their leg over, at least in my experience.

I can agree with feminist on points without being one, just like I can agree on points in the bible without being Christian. The debate I used was quite general and recent but there are many more. If we reversed the argument and said it was a male group protesting how a woman uses her body in the media, I do believe there would be an outcry of 'sexism' and 'men still telling women what to do'. But if it's women, it's just people disagreeing?

feminists aren't telling women not to pose naked for photographs, and no woman who has posed for page three should feel ashamed. in the context of page three, it is about an editorial decision within our current sexist society, in a paper run by (and arguably for) men, that portrays women as objects for men's sexual gratification daily and as some sort of right alongside "news" about men doing things. it's about how that fits into and reinforces our current sexist society. i don't know any feminists who think that breasts should be hidden or shameful or never looked at. it's about the social and cultural context of page three which is damaging to women (and men) as a group. i'm not going to re-hash all the arguments because there have been far more eloquent and in-depth posts on MN over the last few weeks

I'm not a christian, because I don't believe there's a god. But I do believe that it's nice to be nice, which christianity also says, or something like it, apparently.

I'm a feminist because I think there are a shit ton of ways women are undervalued/misrepresented/crummily treated in society, and I would like to see that change.
There is a TON of stuff some feminists say that I don't agree with, and some that makes me downright furious.

But I see the central focus of feminism as my first sentence - it's like believing in god is to christianity.

So I'm a feminist.

When people say they aren't feminists I see it as saying, that they don't believe women are undervalued. They don't want to see a change. It's not, for me, about what you think about page 3, just as I'm sure most anglicans don't give a shit about your reading of a certain commandment or whatever.

But I also understand that when the Jehovah's Witnesses come round and I tell them I'm not interested because I don't believe in god, they might be a bit upset by that.

I guess where I see a difference is that I see so much proof of women being under-valued. So much that needs to change. And I don't see any proof of god at all.

Burke I don't understand you, you're either being deliberately obtuse, but in that case you're being obtuse in SUCH a boring way, or otherwise you don't understand the difference between individual and society? Macro and micro? Anyway, it's cool, just... odd.