To say that in the light of what has happened in Paris we mustn't give the extremists what they want..?

[AWholeLottaNosy]

I'd like to reproduce an article in The New Statesman which is basically saying that the aims of these attacks is to increase anti Muslim prejudice, increasing attacks on these communities ( as we've already seen in France) and thereby increasing the sense of alienation and hostility towards the West and recruiting more terrorists...?

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/01/charlie-hebdo-attack-really-struggle-over-european-values

Any extremist wandering on this innocuous parenting site would be delighted at some of the views being expressed.

YABU. How on earth do you know what the extremists want OP? Do you have a direct line to them or something? What a ridiculous statement to make.
What I do know is that there are a lot of very pissed off people in the UK right now who feel angry that several brave individuals have been murdered in cold blood in their place of work; that they were murdered in the name of Islam; and that STILL there are morons about who attempt to portray as racist anybody who dares to criticise or question that religion; and that worse still, there is even (i have seen it on mumsnet) victim blaming going on whereby some people are saying the victims were somehow asking for it.
The cartoonists were killed for ridiculing islam. Well personally i agree with them. I think islam is a ridiculous, outdated, divisive religion, the sole objective of which is to allow men to treat women like shit.

I'm sorry but my defense of this man against someone who compares prayer and worship to doing makeup or brushing hair on the train is pointless, I refuse to waste my time.

I brush my hair and do my makeup on the train, fuck it. People need to learn tolerance before they get offended by things that aren't hurting or affecting them in any way whatsoever. The fact it might scare people is a result of miseducation, ignorance and scaremongering, not the fact that prayer is scary.

What's the end game here? Vote Farage, send all the brown people home, put the disabled and infirm into institutions and get a bit upset and regretful when we can't order a balti?

People are so scared to sit next to a Muslim man on the train, scared of a burka, yet would happily let a Muslim deliver food to their front door, that they had cooked with their own hands and PAY for the privilege of this. What's going on in the world?

We have to be emotionally intelligent about this. The time is ripe for sensible, adult debate. It's hard not to get emotional when it comes to this subject and I think it's the emotional response which leads to either "send em all home" or "you're a bigot if you dare to criticise". Both of these retorts come from fear and may effectively silence debate.

What is more helpful is to be honest about what problems we have here in the UK because there is an issue. Let there be debate about segregation, immigration, marginalisation, integration..these are not dirty words. To feel afraid to discuss this, to self-censor, is also playing into the extremists' hands.

YABU. How on earth do you know what the extremists want OP? Do you have a direct line to them or something? What a ridiculous statement to make.

Are you under the impression that they keep their aims secret? Bit pointless, if they did.

Why is immigration an issue? Why is that in any way related to extremism? Most people that commit offenses like this or conspire to are British nationals, a lot are even dare I say it, white Muslim converts! So what would debating immigration acheive in that sense?

Senatus iiwork and love alongside lots of muslims. I volunteer with young people from a deprived area. I have muslim friends. I have yet to meet a single muslim who had not condemned these attacks. The young people i volunteer with are scared about their futures, scared to go out (one was spat at yesterday) and worried they will have to pay the price.

This is the fuel the far right need. This itself is a terrifying thought, for every one of us.

YANBU OP. I don't think that encouraging prejudice is their only motivation though - it's just one of many.

simontowers2 don't let sweeping generalisations you seem so eager to make get in the way of fact. Indeed, there are still morons who simply can't see the difference between extremism and everyday people practicing their faith - which happens in all religions not just Islam. Religion is just a convenient excuse. You can copy paste your statement and it would apply to any of them. But it's ridiculous to suggest that all Muslims are the same. If that was the case then our world would be a very different place. I find posts like yours, Senatus and the insane post at the start advocating voting for the far right deeply offensive and really quite disturbing. And I'm just your average white mum with no religious agenda.

You and others are quite entitled to express your opinion and I and others are equally entitled to point out the gaping holes in your argument.

It does put proof to the theroy that hate breeds hate. Which of course is a logical solution to meet like with like

apocalypse nowhere have i heard extremists say their aims are to create divisiveness. If anybody can produce evidence they have said this, i am all ears. ISIS generally say they are carrying out their acts to avenge drone attacks or whatever from the US.

You're right. We mustn't give the extremists what they want. What they want is an end to freedoms that have long been fought for. That is why freedom of speech and freedom of expression must be defended, otherwise the powers of fascism and ignorance have won.

Let there be debate about segregation, immigration, marginalisation, integration..these are not dirty words.

Dear me. What on earth has immigration got to do with any of it I saw you spout the same lines on another thread. You know people could just do this anyway regardless of immigration? If someone wants to cause havoc they will, regardless of what it says on their passport!

Why immigration? Past immigration has given the UK the significant proportion of its Muslim population-not white people converting to Islam. It was, for instance, the children of some of these people (Pakistanis who settled in Yorkshire most likely to work in the mills) who went on to become the 7/7 bombers. How did that happen and why? Where did that extremism come from and why did it manifest itself in that generation? I think it's important to ask those questions.

livingzuid did you actually read my post? Where did i say all muslims are the same? And how would my statement apply to all religions? Please explain.
What other religion apart from islam so subordinates women? What other religion compels people to stone people to death? What other religion sees women killed for committing adultery?
Just one more thing: how the fuck dare you say i am advicating voting far right? I detest the far right. The liberal left are soooo bleeding predictable. Somebody doesnt agree with them? Dont bother engaging directly in debate with them: just attempt to paint them as a rightwing bigot. Pathetic.

You see this to me is odd. You're all suggesting that Muslims are one.

I'm seeing the direct opposite. I'm seeing a massive gulf in Muslim belief. I don't think Muslims are one at all anymore. Not even close. I guess I did once. Now it feels like Muslims have lost control of half of those believing in the same religion. And that I think is what seems to intimidate people? That they can't all be written as one group. That they might actually have to understand them a bit. Since say 1960s they have been just grouped as Muslim. Now, and I'm desperately trying not to write 'good' and 'bad', there's divisions and time might need to be taken in understanding.

In trying to be concise I'm unsure I've been eloquent. Especially on a phone. Anyway, that's my penneth..

I havent heard anybody suggest muslims are one greywhack. Islam is one though. That is the issue here. Why are so many atrocities being carried out in the name of this particular religion? Surely this is the question we need to answer.

There have always been factions with Islam, that is nothing new.

I know what I have difficulty with is understanding why some Muslims (the vast majority) are quite happy to go about their lives peacefully, practising their religion in their own lives & homes, whilst some end up subscribing to the tenets of IS & Al Quaeda.

I am no expert by a long shot, but I wonder if we really need to look at education as the root of this side of things. The government perhaps needs to look at working with the moderate Muslim community & their leaders to promote the positive, tolerant aspects of the faith, and steer young people away from the more fundamentalist viewpoint.

I also think they need to stand up for the basic rights & principles we hold dear such as freedom of speech & expression. Unfortunately the powers that be are so hellbent of eroding those rights for their own benefit they are rapidly running out of legs to stand on.

I also think it's high time we had a separation of Church & State. No religion should be allowed to cloud the workings of government in the 21st century imho - and I say that as Christian.

I agree with the questions from 'Simon'.

We are not addressing the elephant in the room.

Heres a good article in the times today by an x-Muslim.

‘We have been too tolerant of intolerance. We must wake up’

www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4318949.ece

When Ayaan Hirsi Ali heard the news about the attack on the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo in Paris, she had “a feeling of complete shock. I was stunned. It brought back terrible memories.” Just over ten years ago, Theo Van Gogh, the director she had collaborated with on a film that was critical of Islam, was murdered by a Dutch Muslim and she herself received death threats. “The murderer of Theo Van Gogh was not a sophisticated man, he had no military training. What is so chilling is the extent to which the attack in Paris was pre-planned. These three men were very professional.”

Islam isn't one, simon.

It's completely riven between Shia and Sunni, who are having a murderous war in Syria about this right now. Much of the killing in Iraq was similarly sectarian even before ISIS came on the scene.

The victims of Islamic extremism are very often other muslims. The divisiveness starts right there.

It's like rubbing people's face in it I think. Like 'I know people are worried about Islamic extremism at the moment, so I'll just get on the train floor and start doing my prayers.' Seriously? What will his God do to him if he waits until he gets home to do his prayers, hmm?

Or it is taking a moment in a busy day so pray. Much like countless sikhs, Christians do. Except this apparently is more offensive because it is a touch more obvious? I cannot begin to follow the stupidity of this opinion.

I think - and some people on this thread have cemented that - that backlash against the Muslim community as a whole is a real risk and this will in turn foster more radicalism.

Anyone who thinks the threat is from "Muslims" as opposed to extremists is frighteningly and dangerously misinformed.

Re: the comment regarding using the #JeSuisCharlie hashtag being an unequivocal support of the magazine, for me it was a support of the people who lost their lives exercising their right to free speech. And actually, it doesn't matter if Charlie Hebdo was the most offensive, racist bigoted rag ever written - that doesn't mean for a moment the killing of people is acceptable.

There is another issue. Just as there are different denominations of Christianity, different branches of Judaism, there are different kinds of Islam. There are differences between Sunni, Shi'a and within Sunni there is Sufi ( which could be described as mystical and spirit led; ultimately reliant on God's mercy.) and Wahadi (more hard line of literal interpretation, certainties of black and white; following the letter of the law; ultimately good works are weighed and count for or against you.) They are quite different.

Then in the UK there all kinds of interdenominational crossovers, intergenerational play, people from all kinds of backgrounds coming together and their children having to find their own path. What is a 'good muslim' to an extremist is to make a stand against compromise.

So OP I wholeheatedly agree with you. Discussion is needed between us all, in calm and friendly ways, casual settings. It is no good to come to the discussion telling others they are all wrong or to change.

The little things and the slightly bigger things that make up our lives are good to talk about, good to share. Good to come to a shared solution that works for us all and brings reconciliation and a greater understanding and real peace for all (not just some).

Just one more thing: how the fuck dare you say i am advicating voting far right? I detest the far right. The liberal left are soooo bleeding predictable. Somebody doesnt agree with them? Dont bother engaging directly in debate with them: just attempt to paint them as a rightwing bigot. Pathetic.

Yep. I agree with you Simon. The same accusations have been made towards me. Tiresome really. Don't be afraid. It is a technique used to silence those who don't fit in with their agenda and their morals. It's just their opinion and they are the ones who are afraid which is why they stick to their safe bubble.

^Which doesn't mean I'll tolerate killing. Once that has been resorted to, they come under the banner of terrorists. No discussion. Justice and the law to protect the many as they are answerable for killing those who are living peacefully.

And why are so many atrocities being carried out "in the name of Islam" at the moment?

Because the ideology which offers certainty and prizes at the moment is located within (a small corner of) Islamic interpretation.

At other times in history it's been other ideologies, sometimes within religions and sometimes outside.

Someone said the Paris killers were disaffected druggies deemed losers in their existing society. I don't know if that's true, but it wouldn't be a surprise if so.

Chicken I said that to you. Please don't misrepresent me. I did not use a technique nor am I in a safe bubble.

I just hate all the lumping in of Muslims together that's on here and mass calls for refusing immigration and posts about people praying being offensive..all things which are encouraged by far right groups such as Britain First.

I told you on the other thread not to patronise and belittle my.opinion and I am saying it again here.

Some of the posts on MN in recent days have been fucking disgusting.