To say that in the light of what has happened in Paris we mustn't give the extremists what they want..?

[AWholeLottaNosy]

I'd like to reproduce an article in The New Statesman which is basically saying that the aims of these attacks is to increase anti Muslim prejudice, increasing attacks on these communities ( as we've already seen in France) and thereby increasing the sense of alienation and hostility towards the West and recruiting more terrorists...?

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/01/charlie-hebdo-attack-really-struggle-over-european-values

Beautifully written Silverbangles. You have put into words my thoughts perfectly. I sincerely hope that we (not just mn but we as a society) can move on now and question and debate without fear of being shut down and referred to as bigots or racists.

Mistressmia I take my hat off to you.

Hmmm...I'm so temped to break copyright and post a few poor taste Calvin and Hobbes snowman cartoons...

How can you take seriously someone who thinks snowmen are hot.

well said Silver

Another one here saying wise words from silver.

Mia, glad to hear you are back and have read the supportive messages.

Thanks again everybody for the lovely sentiments and encouragement.

I am heartened to know that there are many who are supportive.

I used to think that I had it wrong and had read things incorrectly. Why was it that I was the only one dissenting while all my muslim contemporaries continued to still practice and revere their faith. Some of these friends become extremely devout, adopting the hijab and all the other accoutrements of a good muslim men and woman, having further studied Islam. These are educated, professional people. One dropped out of med school to devote herself to Islam. Her wedding was the most eerie affair with men and women strictly segregated and absolutely no music or the usual gaiety associated with Indian/Pakistani weddings.

None of the above really bothered me. They were personal matters and if you want to be a Stepford Wife, go ahead. It's when the terrorism started and Western voices began to add to the chorus of 'this is not true Islam' and nobody questioned it, my doubts about my own convictions grew. But having read and re-read the the religious texts I cannot make black into white and vice versa. Some of it may be 'out of context' but lots is exactly what it says.

I can see from this forum and on other outlets that there is a change in mood in terms of critiquing Islam.

In order not to be met with accusations of being anti-muslim, I am going to keep most of my posts as factual and based on challenging Islam from what I think its texts are saying. I sincerely hope that the muslim posters do join and offer rebuttals. Its this open debate that will lead to clarification of what 'True Islam' really is and if the ideology is as it is claimed to be a 'Religion of Peace', then surely we can pull the rug from the terrorists and law makers who claim that scripture supports them.

For what its worth, there are liberal muslim reformers trying to do that and I fully support them even if i don't entirely agree 100% with what they say e.g. some are arguing that the death sentence for blasphemy is only applicable when multiple instances of blasphemy are committed and not for one off cases. They have found convincing theological support for this and are now trying to challenge Pakistan's Penal Code. So although I disagree that multiple cases should be met with death, I'm a realist enough to know that after centuries of brainwashing and with Islam having such a hold on people psyche, nullifying such laws is the first step. Hopefully once amended, lawyers will be able to prove that the multiple blasphemer did in fact only blaspheme once and nobody will be killed for insulting the prophet or islam.

Please object to and share the plight of Soheil Arabi currently on death row for blasphemy:

www.change.org/p/hojatoleslam-hossein-karimi-savesoheil-sentenced-to-death-for-a-facebook-post?utm_campaign=new_signature&utm_medium=email&utm_source=signature_receipt

I will not ever accepts somebody being punished, be it with lashes, prison or ultimately death due to blasphemy. I think it is utterly barbaric.

And any religion which actually carries this out, as indeed in multiple Islamic states at the moment, puts the fear of Islam in me and most definitely doesn't give me the feeling that we as Westerners and unbelievers, would be safe if our states are run by Muslims. I think that until Islam goes through a reformation, its intolerance of those who are different, who think differently, who criticize it, should be regarded as a huge threat to Western civilization and should be clamped down upon to the maximum extent.

I don't feel we need to reconciliate, I feel it is up to Muslims, moderate Muslims, to start the fundamental process of bringing Islam into modernity, otherwise they are simply not credible in my view.

Ok, so what those terrorists did, and what ISIS are doing is true Islam?

Are you saying it isn't possible to have Muslims living peacefully in countries with free speech?

I would say yes, it is Islam. Just as there are good Christians, and bad kkk forming Christians.

Are you saying it isn't possible to have Muslims living peacefully in countries with free speech ?

This is where it gets confusing between Muslims & Islam.

Some (a lot of) what the terrorists do is found in the literal interpretations of Islam itself.

Thankfully MOST muslims don't follow this literal interpretation to the letter, which is why muslims en-masse here have not gone on the rampage to kill cartoonists or unbelievers or anyone else the scripture objects to.

There is huge debate raging about what defines a muslim. Can you be a muslim if you don't follow all aspects of Islam ? ISIS don't think so and hence pronounce them as heretics and that's why they've killed so many muslims in Iraq and Syria and Boko, the same in Nigeria.

The 'moderate' muslims have their own interpretation, but this seems to be largely based on ignoring, over looking and revising things without any theological basis.

So the answer is yes you can and do have muslims living peacefully in Western countries, but (a) are they actually muslim in the true sense or just culturally so and (b) what to do about the increasing number of other literalist muslims who don't hesitate to use force.

As demographics change and muslim populations in Europe grow, as they surely will with increasing numbers of refugees fleeing the Middle East, there is the possibility that Western laws could be changed democratically. A coalition of mainstream muslim groups in France tried to get Charlie Hebdo cartoons changed through the courts but were unsuccessful. Should the Sharia Party ever arise and get into power, then the violence may stop as the laws will have been amended to prevent it in the first place.

The Political Islam movement has made no secret of the fact that their ultimate aim is to make things more Sharia compliant via the ballot box in both Islamic and Western countries.

Charlie Hebdo cartoons changed banned through the

I tossed and turned last night, many of the points on this thread (especially from MistressMia) and elsewhere running through my head, and then decided to take a leaf from Charlie Hebdo and put it into an image.

I am an ex-religious person myself (not naming here, but not Islam), and suffered badly whilst raised inside it, and worse when I left it, including physical abuse, and was horrified to find the reaction toward me for speaking out about the religion (the ideology) that promoted my mistreatment. So this is by no means an exercise in theory for me.

Please note, I do not intend to target or reproach any individuals whatsoever by this, just some of the prevailing ideas and attitudes. I have used Islam as the example because it is the example that came up in this thread, but it applies equally to any oppressive religious ideology.

Also note, I do not expect to gain any awards for brilliant artistry .

InAnotherVisit Brilliant representation.

I think I might get that printed on some bags and T-shirts, copyright permitting.

To further elaborate, I have no doubt that there are many happy, practising Muslims who love and adore their religion.

However, it cannot be denied that there are those who are oppressed by the same religious ideology.

I draw a distinction between the religion, which I believe should be just as open to criticism/scrutiny as any political party or prescriptive ideology (in the case of Islam, this ideology's 'manifesto' is laid out in the Qur'an). I draw a distinction between this 'suprastructure' and between the individuals following it, who will have adapted it to their own moral code.

It was your voice weighing on my thoughts most of all MistressMia, and the image is for you, because I know how it feels to have your perspective and experiences lightly dismissed, perhaps because they are uncomfortable to hear. How do we challenge something we've been told to be tolerant toward?

To me the answer comes easier now, challenge the religion, the ideology, the influential suprastructure itself. Be tolerant and kind toward the individual followers (as we should be to all human beings).

I truly believe that the majority of Muslims are good, peaceful people, just as I believe most of humanity is. But Islam (the ideology) has a lot to answer for, as do many religions IMO, and cannot, must not be above scrutiny.

"The Political Islam movement has made no secret of the fact that their ultimate aim is to make things more Sharia compliant via the ballot box in both Islamic and Western countries"

And I find it bizarre that there appears to be little concern from any of the (so called) respectable political parties in the UK with regard to this. They all carry on trotting out the same lines how we should not fear Islam but embrace it. But how can we not fear this when the civil liberties or lack of them in most countries who follow sharia law are so far removed from what we expect and follow here? Are they so tied up to their ears in million pound business dealings with Saudi Arabia, Quatar and other super rich muslim nations that they are now unable to object and take steps to prevent this? Is it any wonder why so so many people are voting for UKIP when they are currently the only party willing to acknowledge this very real scenario?

Totally agree with you Gloria and this applies also to Germany, Netherlands etc.

yes I feel the same Gloria

I agree that we must be kind to individuals but I like Western society and freedom to be a christian but whilst respecting others' choices.