To say that in the light of what has happened in Paris we mustn't give the extremists what they want..?

[AWholeLottaNosy]

I'd like to reproduce an article in The New Statesman which is basically saying that the aims of these attacks is to increase anti Muslim prejudice, increasing attacks on these communities ( as we've already seen in France) and thereby increasing the sense of alienation and hostility towards the West and recruiting more terrorists...?

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/01/charlie-hebdo-attack-really-struggle-over-european-values

"Fanjo on another thread where a poster was excusing the subjugation of and violence towards women by Islam, rather than pull the poster up on her views, you sided with her on the basis that we were being mean to her!

In your book people can say and do the most reprehensible or illiberal things in the name of Islam and you can find a way to make them the victim and express sympathy for them. You confer on muslims a victimhood that feeds into this false narrative of Islam being oppressed rather than being the oppressor."

And several posts of that ilk.

Am not getting back into it though.

I when I said I was upset that people were implying I condoned barbaric actions, someone said "truth hurts".

I don't want to dredge it all up again though.

mistressmia I really hope you continue to post and feel safe posting here. I find your contributions and insight into this subject very thoughtful.

I've not contributed to the thread but have followed and all I can add is that we surely we should be able to discuss, question and even disagree with certain elements of Islam without being accused of being an Islamaphobe.

I live in an area of London that has seen a rapid rise in women wearing the niqab as well as infant school age girls wearing veils. Whereas 10 years ago I may have seen 2 or 3 families at the school or dr's surgery, today in a class of 7 year olds with 11 muslim girls 8 of them wear the veil and their parents wear the traditional (what I perceive to be) arab dress. I am interested to know why this change in dress has evolved? It may be that it is cultural but many of these families are british and not recent immigrants to the area. I'm not arguing whether it is right or wrong but genuinely interested in this change and the reasons for it. Are the London mosques promoting a more conservative version of Islam to follow in line with Saudi?

mistressmia knows the truth. She has lived it. People need to listen to her.

mistress mia, I find your posts interesting, measured and knowledgable. You are obviously a brave individual, don't be bullied off here by the 'frothing' crowd who are not willling to debate.

Noone hounded Mia off.

She got offended and upset as she believed people were refusing to condemn Islam. Noone attacked her at all.

What nonsense. She is free to do as she likes. It was her doing all the attacking. And selective quoting from other threads.

She can certainly come back to this thread happily as I won't be posting on it.

Ridiculous claims of her being forced off.

I am always really shocked when I see little girls wearing hijabs. It's basically saying that they are seen as sexual beings and must cover up just in case men get cannot control their lust for a little girl. And I've seen really little girls of 3 or 4 wearing them ffs!

Gloria, (I'm hesitant to reply on a thread about murderers, but to stop the diacussion drying out, Ill bite). Could it just be a fashion? Are there any things that might be cause for concern about how these girls and women may be being badly treated, or anything about theur behaviour which is anti social? I see a lot of veils on young adults around here, but not small girls as yet. Are the veils on girls of puberty age (8 and above) or some younger?

I do value everyone's perspective and contributions to the discussion (discussion, mind, not debate. We can change our minds, and be in two minds!)

As someone said, the amazing peaceful rally in Paris celebrating equality, liberty and fraternity is something to dwell on and allow to be a bigger in our consciousness than the destructive mad acts of a few terrorists who are now dead, or wanted criminals.

To answer a question from a poster re. Increase in younger girls wearing the hijabs, it's peer pressure.

Whatever the reasons for covering their faces it will keep the isolation going for another generation.

You talk about muslims fears, but have no regard or consideration for the very real fear of physical harm to ex-muslims from some muslims. I post on this forum anonymously, but do not feel brave enough to say these things in public. How is it that in Britain in 2015 I cannot phone a talk show to put across an alternative view for fear that someone might recognise my voice ? Why in the UK are ex-muslims having to live a double life and in fear and in hiding

Awful You should not feel afraid to speak in RL and this is the double paradox you and others have to live with.

Your a wonderful poster Mia and you have really educated many of us on here and I thank you for your posts.

She got offended and upset as she believed people were refusing to condemn Islam. Noone attacked her at all

Mia you have done so well on all your posters over the weeks/months when people have tried to twist and turn what you have said like ^ this statement above.

Most of us with a clear and rational head can see this going on so don't worry

I don't know if I have said anywhere, but I appreciate mistressmia's posts and hope she will continue to make them.

Tbh this thread like the other threads clearly demonstrates the problem. We, non-muslims are islamophobic if we dare to criticize Islam but Muslims can say and do whatever they like.

We are not just talking a few nasty people, look at facebook, twitter, we don't have shared values and there is no willingness to embrace Western values.

Mia it is hard on here to tread the fine line between addressing non Muslim's irrational fear of the unknown (and I'll include my own fears and misunderstandings there) while also taking on board sound advice about the very real risks to society, to ex Muslims, to any target of the violent and extreme minority who put Sharia law above the law of our land. You've given really valuable insights to this discussion, and corrected my misunderstandings. Unfortunately, as with all public discussions, there will be ' radio interference' with distractions, background noises, occasional retuning etc. Please ignore all that (that goes for everyone, just drop it) and stick to the important stuff.

I don't want you to feel you are putting yourself at any risk of discovery or harm by posting personal information here. I'd love to ask you more, but again don't want you to reveal any more than you are comfortable with. Thank you again for posting. :)

Willbeat. Mia herself said that was why she was upset and didnt feel like posting.

not sure why YOU are twisting MY words tbh.

i even said i understood her upset

I don't think the fear of non-muslims irrational, it is very rational based on hard unpleasant facts of continuing attacks of Muslims on non-Muslims and especially on Jews. We are not just talking one or two ...

You misunderstood me, I was referring to irrational fears that non-Muslim people do have based on reading the daily mail and feeling disproportionately scared about...irrational things (like the peaceful daily goings on of ordinary Muslims or Jews or even any newish immigrants they see around them...so things like halal meat in Asda, religious customs, languages other than English, headscarfs) . Some non-Muslim fears are not irrational, some are.

Lots of people feel alienated all the time. In the UK, when we lose our jobs we don't go into a Walmart and shoot 15 people, whereas, in the States, you do.

It's fast becoming a fashion also, that if you're a young muslim man you might want to do a bit of jihad. OK, so you may have no vague clue what jihad is. But, there are no shortage of older men who are willing to explain the way they see it. (Chances are they don't know either. But, that's an aside.)

Cyber Jihad? What next? If I blow up lots of part food, is that jelly jihad?

Just a quick pop in to say thanks to everyone's support and to reassure you all that I haven't gone away.

Just the usual stuff like work etc have got in the way.

Unfortunately for my detractors, I'm not that easily upset or offended.

I was a bit emotional yesterday but that was because of Raid Badawi's situation, which just seems so hopeless.

It has however increased my resolve to continue to debate.

fanjo let's put to bed this spat and start again. I'm sure we'll disagree again but let's pick a new angle !

Anyway, will be back later this evening after I've sorted out domestic stuff.

Your a classy lady Mia

MistressMia I have some knowledge of what you have done - not personal experience, I hasten to add, and like you I will not discuss.

BUT, I will say that I direct many many people, especially young women, to read your posts here on MN. I honestly believe that what you have to say is incredibly important and do not see how it could be seen as anything other than an invaluable and unique contribution to these boards.

I stopped posting for a while because I became so disheartened with the empty, predictable and peurile cry of 'racist' whenever this subject arose.

It adds nothing to what could and should be an honest a robust debate and if people are uncomfortable with it, they should sit with that because it is nothing like as uncomfortable as things are for many other people in societies which are not even a hundredth as tolerant as this one, especially for women.

I thought the comment you posted about feeling let down by feminists was one of the saddest things I've read and made me feel very ashamed to have been part of the movement which has not been supportive enough.

I for one would like a practical debate (on another thread perhaps?) about what we feminists can and should be thinking about and doing in order to contribute positively to whatever we can.

Thank you for your continuing intelligent and gracious contributions.

Incredible I know, but according to a Saudi Sheikh Mohammed Saleh Al Minjed you are not even allowed to make a snowman but only objects like ships, fruit, buildings with snow. With building snowmen you imitate non believers, it encourages lust and eroticism. Snowmen are typically Western.