To say that in the light of what has happened in Paris we mustn't give the extremists what they want..?

[AWholeLottaNosy]

I'd like to reproduce an article in The New Statesman which is basically saying that the aims of these attacks is to increase anti Muslim prejudice, increasing attacks on these communities ( as we've already seen in France) and thereby increasing the sense of alienation and hostility towards the West and recruiting more terrorists...?

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/01/charlie-hebdo-attack-really-struggle-over-european-values

thereyouarepeter the answer more tolerance

Really? It hasn't worked well so far.

Hear what those enlightened guys are quoted to be saying at the mosque ... It looks tolerance all has to come from non-muslims towards the Muslims. Muslims are not required to do or change anything, clearly, it is a problem of ordinary muslims if they think that they are so special that others can no longer have freedom of expression as it hurts them so much.

And the Jews ... Nobody cares, definitely I don't here Muslims being worried about Jews fleeing France and Britain for their safety. We should care, not only from a human rights perspective but also from an economic perspective as it is well known that the Jewish community are net contributors to our economy. Same cannot be said for the Muslim community, there the picture is shall we say somewhat more mixed. What do you think this is all going to cost society, extra security, manhunts, Jews leaving, a fortune, a bloody fortune in a time we can ill afford it.

Ugh

Ugly views galore

I'll ignore the unpleasant "economic" argument.

The attacks on Jews across Europe are horrifying, especially the series of murders. Why are Jewish schools and kosher supermarkets seen as so provocative ? What did the little children at the Toulouse school do to provoke their murders ?
Such murders can only be racist. It is horrifying if Jews feel they have to flee persecution again.

And yes, I'd be equally outraged if ever groups of armed terrorists storm into schools and shops belonging to Muslims, Hindus or followers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Just as Choudary has no right to speak for all Muslims (and is stepping perilously near to blasphemy himself in doing so) you cannot speak for the Muslims who pray on trains

I don't care about the train thing, but this 'can't speak for' I do because when people say they are killing for allah other people say "oh no they are not. that's not islam". Isn't that speaking for all Muslims?"
By what right can a poster remove someone else from Islam?

AWholeLottaNosy Those quotes from the interviews are interesting even though they seem to confirm that we have a serious problem here.

Not sure why some want to blame MistressMia for the quotes. They are what they are.

But hebdo werent all about free speech in its entirety were they? They fired one cartoonist for anti semitic mockery. Who decides what is free speech and what is offensive?

Yes, there are different viewpoints in the Muslim community as there are in the jewish, christian and secular community. Just see the comments of netenyahu and murdoch. But their opinions do not represent all Jewish people.

I have no sympathy or respect for any person who justifies or condones these killings whether they be muslim Jewish or Christian. On the whole though from wgat i have read everyone has condemned, even hamas.

This is a link to the reaction of muslims and muslim countries across the world.

www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/01/46-examples-of-muslim-outrage-about-paris-shooting-that-fox-news-cant-seem-to-find/#.VLGipfCajFM.facebook

I am not speaking for all muslims or generalising about them. My views of the man praying was offering an alternative and very real explanation as to why he might be doing so.

If you read properly I said that it could have been devotion OR it could have been to antagonise.

There are a subset of extremist muslims who deliberately set out to provoke by displaying acts of extreme religiosity which they hope will antagonise others and lead to a confrontation. They also have an agenda to push Islam to the fore and be very visible in the public space to assert Islam's dominance.

The average muslim is not doing this and despairs of this type of behaviour. Not specifically just the example being discussed but others such as wearing niqabs (some women do wear them simply to provoke, while others wear them from devotion or because they are forced to) HCPs refusing to examine the other sex, exemptions from bare below the elbow rules, refusing to remove veils in courts etc etc.

The truly devoted muslims will usually find a way to remove themselves or not put themselves in situations that are not compatible with their beliefs, or will compromise in the knowledge that Islam provides for flexibility e.g. pray later.

Having said all that, I don't take public transport much anymore. I am willing to accept that maybe I am being a cynic and perhaps praying on trains is fairly commonplace now by all types of muslims.

I think we need to show more respect. If you know something will piss someone off, why do it?

Because it shouldn't piss people off

Unless they are intolerant or ignorant

My Muslim friends, all met at gym and work, are all very tolerant lovely people. I certainly would respect their wish to pray, but I've never seen them do so.
So, they obviously pray in private at suitable times.
Of course some could be non-practising and are keeping quiet.

There shouldn't be a "suitable time" and it shouldn't be something to be hidden away as if it is shameful.

It shouldnt but it does. Extremists are not normal obviously, so why inflame them when innocent people pay the price.

Because it shouldn't piss people off. Unless they are intolerant or ignorant

Agreed.

Oh but you were probably talking about the train and I was thinking of the muslims complaining about pictures.

I am massively offended by the attitudes towards women and gays in all the paternalistic Holy Books.
However, like most folk here, I would never harrass believers and I certainly wouldn't express my anger by mass murder.

What a clever argument

I x posted. My post was directed to backonlybriefly.

However. If anyone finds praying scary or offensive they seriously are intolerant.

Murdering people..scary and offensive.

Praying not.

I can't believe am actually arguing about this. What a load of tripe.

Off to take DD swimming.

The "suitable" time is what suits them. Why assume it means what is suitable for me or work ?
Why assume the worst interpretation of any word ? That seems hypersensitive

I am not impressed by Muslim organizations saying "We condemn the attacks." Like, gee whizz.... next thing you'll be saying you're in favor of motherhood and apple pie too.

I would be a bit more impressed if I was seeing some kind of concerted effort on behalf of major Islamic organizations to:

-Officially and explicit debunk and disassociate themselves from violent passages in the Koran

• Tackle violent homophobia
• Decry sexism and take steps to ensure the equal treatment of women in Islam
• State that sharia law is an anachronism
• Strongly discourage anti-integrationist beliefs, such as the belief that Muslims should avoid close association with non-Muslims or prevent their children from doing so
• Crack down on violence and harassment aimed at ex-Muslims

Until I see some concrete evidence that genuine, serious efforts are being made to tackle these areas, then I will continue to feel that, right now, Islam is "problematic" in the context of Europe circa 2015, and I am not going to be particularly impressed or wowed by people saying "Oh, but we think murdering people is horrid too!!"

I am not particularly worried about dying in a terror attack. I do worry about bigoted and extremely illiberal attitudes which are being supported by a large minority (NOT a tiny minority) of British Muslims at the moment.

Alienate Muslims to become terrorists to do what?

What do these people want.

There are people in Britain with an agenda, Tower Hamelts, Tojan Horse plot, what they want I don't know! But they are alienating themselves, they do not want to integrate.

I am in very MC area, very! No problems here at all.....mostly everyone friendly...but here we all seem mixed....as far as I am aware there are no radical preachers here, or people who want to islamify schools and so on. So there is no alienation.

MC - multi cultural not middle class.

fanjo
Slaggy I have to go for a bit. It's just too depressing and too much to fight against. And many hard things going on IRL thanks
I can't believe am actually arguing about this. What a load of tripe. Off to take DD swimming.
Fanjo nobody is forcing you to be here. Shut the door behind you

I am on tubes and buses everyday and I have never seen anyone praying. It was pure provacation, giving the timing of it.I don't know why you are willfully missing the point and maybe your righteous indignation could be put to better use.

povocation