To say that in the light of what has happened in Paris we mustn't give the extremists what they want..?

[AWholeLottaNosy]

I'd like to reproduce an article in The New Statesman which is basically saying that the aims of these attacks is to increase anti Muslim prejudice, increasing attacks on these communities ( as we've already seen in France) and thereby increasing the sense of alienation and hostility towards the West and recruiting more terrorists...?

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/01/charlie-hebdo-attack-really-struggle-over-european-values

Do you think Islam (the ideology) condones violence against women?

Posts have been bigoted on this thread and many more than me have said it.

As for my posts being patronising simon well that is actually very amusing to read coming from you.

I really don't have much more to say but I would appreciate if people would stop accusing me of all sorts I don't believe. Thank you very much.

Imagine implying I condone the flogging.

What a fucking cheek.

Hopefully anyone that matters to me will know that is not true.

You should seriously rein yourself in with the anger Mia. It's not healthy for you.

Whilst people tear each other apart on these and other threads, families of those who died this week along with fifty world leaders and more than a million people march in unity. People of all faiths and no faith, people from nations across the world, putting aside differences for a few hours to come together.

I suspect certain posters on this thread won't think that is a good thing.

Has any one said you condoned the flogging? I don't think until now you have mentioned it .

I mentioned it because I cannot see how Saudi's condemnation of the Paris events can be taken in good faith when its own law permits the barbaric treatment of Raif Bedawi.

Lepetit yes I do appear when I see those things and I stand up to them. Obviously this pisses the bigots off. What did I call you on?

Ah so I'm a bigot now.

I do think Islam (the ideology, as distinct from the individual followers) condones violence against women as chastisement, "light tapping" if I recall. This is not to say that any, or even most Muslim individuals would actually lay a hand on anyone. But the ideology certainly does support it.

People understandably get uspet by this ideology, especially when they have been at the sharp end of it. Just as someone who would suffer under a UKIP government might get upset at someone defending or promoting UKIP.

If you say BNP supports racism, and then ask a BNP supporter why they are condoning racism, most of them will get very upset about it too.

I want to express sympathy for reformers and others suffering brutal punishments under religious dictatorships.

They are admirable in themselves, but they are also the main hope of eventually stopping terrorist atrocities.

That is however a very longterm strategy and our civil society would probably disintegrate if such attacks accelerate and continue for decades to come.
So, in the meantime, we need to take measures to prevent a minority of religious fanatics from murdering - BUT while retaining civil liberties. A very difficult balance.
The first step to solving a problem is to discuss it fully and openly, accepting maybe unpleasant truths.

Inanother are you trying to compare me to a staunch Islam supporter?

That was merely mistress mias words. All
I have ever done is say that all muslims shouldn't be lumped.together. and that praying in itself isn't offensive and scary. Depends on the person.

You should seriously rein yourself in with the anger Mia. It's not healthy for you.

You too, sweetheart.

There's been a lot of frothing and threatening to flounce and sadly it's distracting from some of the very balanced, intelligent, thoughtful and non-cliched debate here. Debate which is coming from an empirical viewpoint and not knee-jerk, debate-closing claptrap and empty rhetoric.

MistressMia I for one believe these boards have been immeasurably enriched by your contributions. I have learned so very much from your posts it would be a crying shame to see you stop posting because of wilful ignorance.

I'm not comparing you to anything.

I'm saying that those who don't support Islam (the ideology) should absolutely be able to call it out and criticise it.

People who also use the opportunity to jump on individual Muslims and express hostility/hatred toward them as human beings should definitely be counteracted.

I think the two keep getting lumped in together (Islam the ideology, and Muslims the individuals), and they are not the same thing.

Well strangely I have spoken to and read many other MNers who were despairing of the bigotry on this and other threads and have stayed off them or hid them. So i don't and take the flak yet again. Thanks people.

Damn right I am angry. I was accused of condoning atrocities and flogging of journalists. That is really offensive.

Mia is just raging at Islam..with good reason..but she rages at any who try to stop all Muslims being lumped together and don't just outright condemn the whole of Islam in blanket fashion .

Ps shove the "sweetheart".very nasty when followed by nasty words.

The only thing you can generalise about with Muslims (again as with any other religious or political members, Christians, UKIP voters, etc) is that they all put their 'vote' to their ideology of choice to a greater or lesser extent.

Muslims support Islam.
Christians support Christianity.
UKIP members support UKIP.
Labour members support Labour.

You cannot generalise about the group of individuals other than what they publically support, but you can object to what the individual chooses to support.

That our questioning of Islam would provide the impetus and courage for others living under its oppressive yoke to do the same.The thing though that I've been the most naive about however, was that Western feminists, humanists and secularists would all side with us, rather than the religious right wing and an ideology that has been and will continue to be responsible for so much harm.

Interesting conundrum.

You should seriously rein yourself in with the anger Mia. It's not healthy for you

I never see her posts as angry...I think she is an eloquent poster who has held her tone even in the face of some nasty posts against her.

My post was in response to silver.

'If it's not religion, cat, what on earth is it about?'

In the case of the Paris hostage situations, it appears to be a small cell of close friends whipping themselves up in an isolated violent frenzy. When they mention religion it sounds nothing like Islam, it's taken one small part of Islamic teaching and stretched a point to such extremes it is no longer recognisable. To the point that they have completely crossed the line and they are perpetrators of horrible crimes. So it isn't about religion now, it is about the murders and atrocities they have commited; the laws they have broken.

As for ISIS, that's about power, land grabbing, ethnic clensing, war crimes and another, grander level of criminal activity. There is no excuse that can justify it and quibbling over religion is like fiddling while Rome burns.

Inanother. If you read my posts my anger was generally directed at people who were criticising one Muslim for praying.

Read them. I have also said many times I don't agree with every tenet of Islam.

Read what I said.

Sheesh

So, what measures can we can take in the short term, to prevent future such terrorist attacks ? What is the long term strategy ?
Nearly as important: how to reassure the public that effective measures are being taken ?

Yes this seems to be a super huge issue, the religion the way its set up - defies being looked at although saw a very articulate man from Quillam, said he is muslim and islam needs looking at.

Must be Maajid Nawaz - himself no stranger to being threatened for expressing his views.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maajid_Nawaz

And yes he is very articulate (and easy on the eye ). Here he is talking about the events of last week.

Here he is on Newsnight talking about his own cartoon gate.

And here he is talking about Muslim schools in the UK.

Apologies if I am repeating what others have said since I haven't read all the posts.

Fanjo, I have read your posts.

I am not sure what it is I have written that you are objecting to.

Surely a difference between Christianity and Islam is that (a) the Bible comes in two parts and (b) the Bible was not dictated by God to a prophet.

These two facts allow modern Christians to determine that the Old Testament is mythological mumbo-jumbo and that the New Testament tells them how to live like Christ. He set a pretty decent example as far as I remember (long time since I've opened a Bible).

Islam is one book dictated by Allah himself. Harder to deviate from with a clear conscience.

Apologies if my facts are wrong.