To say that in the light of what has happened in Paris we mustn't give the extremists what they want..?

[AWholeLottaNosy]

I'd like to reproduce an article in The New Statesman which is basically saying that the aims of these attacks is to increase anti Muslim prejudice, increasing attacks on these communities ( as we've already seen in France) and thereby increasing the sense of alienation and hostility towards the West and recruiting more terrorists...?

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/01/charlie-hebdo-attack-really-struggle-over-european-values

No, simon, fanjo is welcome to post here, and come and go, as are any other posters who are joining the diacussion.

Mia thanks for coming back with clarification of your posts and addressing my challenge.

So yes, there are some people who are extreme in making public religious acts, 'hoping to provoke a confrontation' and this takes us right back to the OP - simply do not be confrontational. By all means disagree, write to the train company or council or MP, make peaceful mockery and take a stand where it becomes a public nuisance. That is our freedom too.

Backonlybriefly I completely agree that as a single poster I have no right to speak out and say that these terrorists were not true Muslims, or representing Islam. As I said, this has been said by Islamic representatices across the world, Saudi, Iran, Morocco, Quatar, Turkey, Egypt, the Arab League and many others have condemned these killings and said it is not in the name of their Islam (check the link at the end of Babbas' post just after your post.) There are off whack. A cult.

They may be a cult cat, who knows. The problem is that there seem to be too many of these 'cults' willing to carry out atrocities, and all of them are drawing inspiration from some or other interpretation of islam. Yes, islamic representatives have condemed the killings but they need to be doing more IMO. It is in their own interests to do more soul searching about their religion and ask why it appears to be a breeding ground for terrorists.

CatCushion but how can they have the authority to say it? People keep saying Islam has no leaders. Surely only Allah has the right or the person themselves.

See this is just the "No True Scotsman" thing isn't it.

I could say that no Christian has ever committed theft in the history of the world because if they steal they are not Christian. Therefore only non-christians steal.

It is in their own interests to do more soul searching about their religion and ask why it appears to be a breeding ground for terrorists

I totally agree and do more visibly to disassociate themselves from these nutters...huge rallies...

Nick Cohen has a very good Article in the Guardian describing ing how the UK succumbed to self-censorship years ago, fearing the terrorists.
That affects all debate on Islam, not just the sideshow of cartoons.

I really agree with his analysis of how the media & arts behave:
"We take on the powerful – and ask you to admire our bravery – if, and only if, the powerful are not a paramilitary force that may kill us"

Islam won't have a Reformation like Christianity did, until large numbers of Muslims can critically analyse religion without fear of horrific penalties.

Of course, everyone should believe mistress. Her lies are believable to the ignorant

Nice try - but how inconvenient it must be that most normal people understand Muslims do not all think the same way, neither are they all terrorist sympathisers. How odd, too, that you choose not to confront the endless posts suggesting that MNers don't understand this, that they've said all Muslims should apologise/are to blame and much more. As ever repeating a lie doesn't somehow make it true, however much folk might wish it did

Nobody wants decent people to feel threatened, but for me it doesn't help to avoid discussion of cultural or religious influences which might create or support extremism of any type. If we're ever to get beyond this mess, proper and open discussions of all issues will be needed; in the meantime, denial, namecalling and demands for special treatment and victim status simply don't help

Nick Cohen's article in guardian most sensible, insightful thing i've seen on this issue.

The men sound scared? Stop transferring your sensitivities into this interview. There's no way of telling if they are scared. The only thing you can take from it is they are asking for special exceptions to made for religion within our current legal framework Not going to happen

But its already happened hasn't it ? Self-censorship about Islam is rife. Not just offensive cartoons that they object to, but anything critical even if it is factual and historical

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/11/paris-attacks-we-must-overcome-fear-or-selfcensorship-will-spread

For those of you saying they are scared - the sentiments today are exactly the same as the ones the generation before expressed during the Rushdie affair, when muslims / Islam was not on anybody's radar or a topic of daily conversation. At that time there was nothing for muslims to be scared of.

How naive I was to think that when my generation and subsequent generations came of age, the views that my father and his friends were expressing would become obsolete.

We, brought up with the freedoms and values of Western democracy would say "you know what, I find those cartoons / that book / that play / that documentary / that film extremely distasteful and as a Muslim I abhor them, but I respect the right of others to say what they wish and uphold the principle of free speech. The same free speech that has afforded us the right to be able to say exactly what we want, including denigrating non-muslims in the most obscene manner in our holy texts"

I used to think that my and future generation would see the adverse effect Islam was having on the lives of other muslims particularly women, and on minorities in muslim majority countries and that we would speak out and either reform or abandon Islam and hence be able to change lives for the better. That our questioning of Islam would provide the impetus and courage for others living under its oppressive yoke to do the same.

The thing though that I've been the most naive about however, was that Western feminists, humanists and secularists would all side with us, rather than the religious right wing and an ideology that has been and will continue to be responsible for so much harm.

fanjo you and all the others who make excuses for or overlook Islam's and some muslims worst excesses are the people who have shocked us the most and who we feel utterly let down by.

You talk about muslims fears, but have no regard or consideration for the very real fear of physical harm to ex-muslims from some muslims. I post on this forum anonymously, but do not feel brave enough to say these things in public. How is it that in Britain in 2015 I cannot phone a talk show to put across an alternative view for fear that someone might recognise my voice ? Why in the UK are ex-muslims having to live a double life and in fear and in hiding.

You announce every few posts you are leaving. Well I'm doing the same. Typing this and reading the views of people like you and being reminded of our reality has really upset me.

Islam won't have a Reformation like Christianity did, until large numbers of Muslims can critically analyse religion withouht fear of horrific penalties

Yes this seems to be a super huge issue, the religion the way its set up - defies being looked at although saw a very articulate man from Quillam, said he is muslim and islam needs looking at.

Of course it does, its time to radically over haul it, get rid of veil, let men and women pray together etc root out sexist elements...bring it up to date.

Bullshit. I condemn barbaric actions as much as same person. I just don't want to lump ALL Muslims in together like some here and feel for those who are peace loving and will now suffer retribution.

Your accusations against me are seriously offensive. Very very much so.

Well I don't disagree with either of you but simon in order for them to take the route of more soul searching and consideration of others, these leaders/representatives need to be a part of the discussion, and this wholescale condemnation is a good place to further this disciasion and for all of us to realise that it is ongoing.

BackOnlyBriefly ISWYM, but I don't interpret their condemnation as washing hands of all responsibility. Yes, only Allah is perfect so He cannot have a representative here on Earth, but within Islam actions are important, and clearly these terrorists consider their path to be extremely important, even at the cost of the lives of unbelievers. They will take another person's life. Isn't that only for Allah to decide/do?

We cannot ulimately say that these terrorists, ISIS etc are not Muslim, in tge same way we cannot say that the Ku Klux Klan of 1960s America were not Christians. But my point is that referring to these extremists as Christians/Muslims in a way that points the finger at all Muslims is illogical and unhelpful. But what you say is true.

Really though, the people who are working towards answers are all saying this is not about religion. It is a red herring. There are religious issues but it is being used as an excuse.

You don't send the dog to puppy training classes for all the excuses about chewed homework. It's a distraction and the real problem is behind the excuses.

What an interesting insight Mistress. I think you should stay, while i dont agree with all you say your posts make for very interesting reading.
The truth sometimes hurts fanjo

If it's not about religion cat, what on earth is it about?

I'm horrified that ex-Muslims in the UK (like Mia, I believe ?) can't openly reveal this, due to fear of hostility from most Muslims and extreme violence from a minority.
We should sympathise with what Mia has to suffer. She is understandably aggrieved at the extremists who might harm her.

Human rights of ex-Muslims are seriously violated even in the UK

Human rights of would-be reformers are savagely violated in Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran, which have invested billions in exporting & growing the most extreme version of Islam.

Simon you dont get to say who is allowed on these threads. Thankfully.

Mia - in which post did fanjo make excuses for islam or make you feel uncomfortable? You feel let down by her because she refused to generalise and label the Muslim population? !

Speaking of generalisations you might want to have an internal dialogue about that. Fyi my best friend is married to an ex muslim. His family are not threatening to him or unsupportive. In fact i know lots of ex muslims none of whom have had the same experience as you. Your family have treated you poorly but you do not speak for event ex muslim. Thankfully.

Simon. It is not the truth. I do not condone any kind of barbaric or unfair act.

how dare you also suggest that? Seriously.

People ..mainly..Simon. .should seriously think about what lengths they are going to to win an argument. Very ugly.

And I think your real anger is not at me Mia. At least you have a reason for being so angry unlike others who are just being twats to win an argument.

Everyone supporting a particular ideology does make them somewhat generalizable as a group... UKIP anyone?

Muslims, as well as any other religious group (Christians, Jews, etc) do have one thing in common with each other, and that is essentially putting their name to or 'voting' for a particular ideology (Islam, Christianity, Judaism). Religious membership is akin to political membership, nothing to do with what someone is, but rather what they choose.

People have to be able to criticise that ideology and the morality of supporting it without showing aggression or hostility to the individual human beings involved. Essentially, playing the ball, not the player.

Isn't it a little hypocritical of Saudi to condemn these attacks and say they don't represent their Islamic law? If Charlie Hebdo had attempted to operate in Saudi the full wrath of Saudi's law would have fallen on them, including lashing and possible execution.

I'm referring again to Raif Bedawi.

fanjo i wasnt aware this was an argument. It is a discussion to my mind.
Fwiw, you have spent the entirity of this thread sneering at other posters, threatening to leave like some petulant child, and labelling as bigotted anybody who dares to take an alternate viewpoint to your own. Your own patronising, condescending attitude to other posters is what i would call "very ugly."

I think it's completely because of religion and not even just Islam.

The core of all the big religions is that there is a being who decides morality and you should be guided by him and not by society - or even by law.
That you should not decide things on the basis of evidence, but on blind faith.
That your god values above all things loyalty to him and the elimination of all opposition (and they do all say that).

Anyone who supports a religion is therefore promoting that way of thinking by word or example. Worse still, most religious people carry a book that says this is right.

Now most people in the west just pack that away somewhere and act like everyone else. Muslims, Jews, Christians etc go to work, watch tv, have families and so on. But because they have supported/taught those core beliefs there are millions who look at it and decide that they will take that to it's logical conclusion.

That wasn't the intent of those 'ordinary' religious people for the most part, but it's what happens.

The only reason Muslims are currently worse is that quite recently Christians developed this idea that you should ignore the book (which was probably mistranslated or misunderstood) and follow what your fellow Christians are doing or what seems nice to you. While Islam is still saying the 'the book can't be wrong'

OK, I've composed myself.

I posted just after I watched a video of the crowd in Saudi chanting Allahu Akbar as Raif Badawi was being flogged and reading his wife's tweet that he may die from his next flogging in 5 days time.

There are so many free thinkers, secularists, muslim reformists and ex-muslims across the muslim world who are in very real grave danger and who will die or be tortured and have died and been harmed for their views. My situation is trifling. Its those in other countries who really need the help and support of their Western compatriots.

fanjo on another thread where a poster was excusing the subjugation of and violence towards women by Islam, rather than pull the poster up on her views, you sided with her on the basis that we were being mean to her!

In your book people can say and do the most reprehensible or illiberal things in the name of Islam and you can find a way to make them the victim and express sympathy for them. You confer on muslims a victimhood that feeds into this false narrative of Islam being oppressed rather than being the oppressor.

Yes, these various "Holy" books contain some horrific views and penalties.
Christians committed dreadful atrocities in previous centuries in the name of religion, but then science and reason became of more importance and values changed.
An Islamic Reformation would be difficult though, so long as criticising Islam is so dangerous.

Mia. If you read that thread properly I said I didn't like the way people leapt on that poster from her first post. I then said her posts about violence were wrong. Please don't quote me out of context. How dare you say I condone violence agains women. Seriously.

Simon. Good. We can loathe each others posts. Fine. Seems sensible.