To say that in the light of what has happened in Paris we mustn't give the extremists what they want..?

[AWholeLottaNosy]

I'd like to reproduce an article in The New Statesman which is basically saying that the aims of these attacks is to increase anti Muslim prejudice, increasing attacks on these communities ( as we've already seen in France) and thereby increasing the sense of alienation and hostility towards the West and recruiting more terrorists...?

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/01/charlie-hebdo-attack-really-struggle-over-european-values

The first step to solving a problem is to discuss it fully and openly, accepting maybe unpleasant truths

Yes, quite right. It's becoming apparent that there is dangerous bigotry within Islam and in a minority of its followers in the UK. I think we can say that without thinking all Muslims are the same.

I find Mia's posts interesting. My friend converted from Islam to Catholicism and has had no trouble. That's not to negate Mia's experience as she has clearly encountered a seam of bigotry.

Bigotry is an inflammatory word but it simply means intolerance. I think we are now learning that such a description is no longer (in the UK) restricted to White neo-nazis.

The internet allows people to be who they truly want to be without fear of reprisals.

Let that sink in.

Mia selectively quoting my posts from across threads to make me look bad is really low and out of order.

I agree with fanjo - have been following this thread but not posting.

The way she is being treated is pretty nasty, imo.

Inanother well you are telling me things I already believe and know in a patronising manner so clearly you don't get me.

I don't know you at all fanjo, just your posts, and can only respond to those. I'm also not interested in making it personal, its 'play the ball, not the player' all the way for me.

I'm slowly seeing once tolerant and very liberal people slide further and further into the far right as more and more attacks happen and they feel less safe.

My cries of this is exactly what the extremists (on both sides) want to happen are largely ignored these days and I'm actually losing long time friends because of it.

Could we agree to put hurt feelings to one side and not exhume past posts ?

The terrorists were motivated by their religious fervour (they were yelling "God is Great")
I think we all umderstand that only a minority of Muslims in Europe would resort to violence, even if they feel very angry or offended by the same issues.

Once terrorists committed the crime, then their religion becomes irrelevant and they are subject to the law, the same as any other criminals.

Avoiding future atrocities in the short term would probably involve more resources for intelligence and security, together with continuous support by community leaders.

It is essential to allow free debate and for the authorities to reassure the wider public that something is being done.

Long term, in the UK we need to discuss how a secular society and a religious minority with some completely different - sometimes alarming - attitudes can more comfortably co-exist.

Its really bad form to take quotes from another thread, out of context, and use them on another thread. As for what you have posted mia i cannot see anwhere where fanjo has condoned violence. Please can stick to the points in question instead of personally attacking others mia.

I am interested in your views as i too know many ex muslims who encounter no hostility from family and i am interested in your experience.

Big choc i agree. We need to find a way to coexist. The march in paris right now reminds us how crucial this is. Very moving scenes seeing people of all ages races and genders standing in solidarity.

Inanother well that is admirable.

I wish others would do the same.

It's a shame though, we seem on same page but you are.obviously misreading my posts as you think we aren't.

There's been heavy spin put on them I must admit.

Bigchoc no I certainly won't be putting feelings to one side having been accused of condoning flogging and violence to women and having posts quoted across threads. Very disappointing.

I will leave you all to it though.

The terrorists are banking on people not reacting with violence. The more our leaders assert that this is not what Islam really represents, the more tolerance and freedom potential terrorists have.

Co-exist with Muslims? yes fine. Co-exist with Islam? I don't see how as it stands now.

We're talking about compromise aren't we, but what kind of compromise could we make? Allow the light domestic abuse for example as long as it's only women? Maybe ban pictures that Muslims object to in public, but allow them in our own homes? Make all meat in public schools etc halal because their religion trumps our choice? Oh wait we pretty much did that so we've made a start.

Maybe some kind of agency to vet humour in advance to clear it?

I think the danger to ex-Muslims depends on their origin - and of course if they go too public.

My family's experience wrt religion:

My late mother was a Coptic Christian who came from the Middle East in the late 1940s, after she married my dad.

• Several years ago, my 2nd cousin married a Muslim and they fled to the UK, to avoid her being forced to convert and bring up their kids as Muslim.

Even in the UK, they remain in hiding and take security precautions. They have never participated in politics or anything controversial; their danger is only due to religion.

• Starting around the 1980s, members of our family experienced increasing difficulty in living there as Christians and started to leave.

Now all her huge extended family (she was born into a family of 14) have moved to various Western countries.

The first step to solving a problem is to discuss it fully and openly, accepting maybe unpleasant truths

Precisely - and the same applies to any ideology, although it's mainly Islam being discussed here

Unfortunately, well-meant attempts to promote assimilation and avoid offence have encouraged some to believe that their religion and community structures are beyond criticism - or even simple comment in some cases. Those who've enjoyed this obviously won't appreciate giving it up - but to my mind that's what has to happen if we're ever to move forward

I can compromise on Halal meat, but absolutely not on feminism or gay rights.
I know my Christian relatives (I'm the black sheep !) would welcome strong blasphemy laws to protect all the main religions, but I don't agree with this.

At least, let's try to calmly debate the future together and in the meantime agree to defeat the terrorists, also together.

Personally, I believe our best chance is to steer future generations away from the umbrella ideologies of religions and toward personal morality and responsibility toward each other as individuals.

I think the only way to accomplish this is to start prising the influential roots of religion out of politics, out of schools, and out of any right to impose or demand any special behaviours from anyone other than the individual who chooses it.

I also think this process is already beginning (albeit too slowly), and am heartened by it. We may not see the fruits in our lifetimes, but I hope our descendants will have much more harmonious lives with each other.

www.quilliamfoundation.org/about/

no one mentiones these people

Superb post, InAnotherVisit - although as you say, I doubt this could be achieved quickly

If we accept the old saying about influence being power, we must also recognise that a lot who enjoy religious influence won't be keen to give it up

On principal I'm against having C of E / Catholic / Muslim / Jewish schools funded by the taxpayer. The state should promote rational education, not religion and children should be educated together.

Every child should have an equal chance at the local school of their parents' choice, independent of their religious beliefs.

Every child should have an equal chance at the local school of their parents' choice, independent of their religious beliefs

Yes

i cannot see anwhere where fanjo has condoned violence.

I didn't see any such posts from fanjo nor any posts from anyone else saying she did. Fanjo said she had been accused of doing so, by whom I'm not sure.