to think britain is a difficult place to be if you're muslim ( part 2 )

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The attack on Charlie Hebdo.
Shall we have 3 guesses who's responsible?

for the powers that be that emcouraged the creation of this whole big mess

So is it our fault that Muslims kill people? mimishimmi

You say "world wars" as though they were evil things we did. Does that include the one where millions died fighting those who were putting to death Jewish people?

If we had a time machine would you like us to go back and say "Hey, Hitler. You carry on. If we interfere then in 70 years someone on a forum will be complaining that we did"

Average British 'moderate muslims' views in 2006:
Asked about attitudes towards free speech, there was little support for freedom of speech if it would offend religious sensibilities. 78% of Muslims thought that the publishers of the Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammed should be prosecuted, 68% thought those who insulted Islam should be prosecuted and 62% of people disagree that freedom of speech should be allowed even if it insults and offends religious groups.
ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/291

Writing today, Asghar Bukhari from the Muslim Public Affairs Committee, who regularly appears as a commentator on TV:
Charlie Hebdo: This Attack Was Nothing To Do With Free Speech?—?It Was About War
The media lapped it up?—?the attack was now spun as an attack on ‘Freedom of Speech’. That cherished value that the West holds so dear.
White people don’t like to admit it, but those cartoons upheld their prejudice, their racism, their political supremacy, and cut it how you will?—?images like that upheld a political order built on discrimination
The Muslims today are a demonized underclass in France. A people vilified and attacked by the power structures. A poor people with little or no power and these vile cartoons made their lives worse and heightened the racist prejudice against them.
www.facebook.com/MPACUK1Ummah

Oh and there is always 'context':
The truth is, this awful attack can not be explained in a vacuum, absent of the context around it. It has to be seen through the prism of events that are going on around the world. With eyes firmly fixed on the wars going on from Palestine to Pakistan.

And a poster on their Facebook page:
'maybe after todays events in paris the average offensive secularist may think twice before insulting 1.7 billion people and drawing cartoons of the greatest man who ever walked the face of this earth, There was no need to provoke such action i pray that after today the average offensive secularist learns a deep lesson it would be dreadful and deeply sad to see more events like this. Theirs no need to provoke such attacks'

Not holding my breath for any great show of solidarity from the vast majority of moderate muslims or any change in attitude.

The Muslims today are a demonized underclass in France. A people vilified and attacked by the power structures. A poor people with little or no power and these vile cartoons made their lives worse and heightened the racist prejudice against them

So many people lead difficult lives, so many people suffer prejudice of all kinds. I wonder why muslims think they are the only people in the world who suffer from unfairness? Or why they think the unfairness they suffer is more serious than that suffered by others? Poor people, sick people, many races subjected to ethnic cleansing around the world. There is so much suffering everywhere, but it is not ok to pick up a gun and go to a newspaper office and shoot dead the journalists there, or pick up a knife and cut people's heads off. Deal with your shit! Life is hard for everyone!

Phaedra rtft ( or at least the first page!) I'm just continuing the previous thread. I very much opposed the original title. ( maybe I should ask to have this titile changed)

Wanting people prosecuted and finding the cartoons offensive does not mean they wanted the cartoonists slaughtered, does it?

fanjo are you saying it's right that they basically condone these murders? they should be condemning the actions in the strongest possible terms. Not saying well it was offensive. This is the attitude that makes even "moderate" muslims scary

Adsy. Of course not. I am saying they don't condone the murders.

They said at the time they found the Danish cartoons offensive and thought the cartoonists should be prosecuted. Years ago.

This does not extrapolate into them refusing to condemn or condoning the attack now.

I thought this was a pretty powerful piece by Alex Massie in the Spectator blogs.

Excellent and well balanced piece.

Thanks for linking that was an interesting piece. I was interested to see the historical detail from Scotland - I often fear I would have been a zealot in my younger days given the right circumstances, i.e pre scientific thinking and any encouragement from family whatsoever. I've gone from devout child (in a non-practising household!) to agnostic and then atheist older adult.

mimishimmi, don't mistake support of the right of cartoonists or journalists or novelists to ridicule religion for supporting those messages. It's the old difference: I may disagree and dislike what you say but I will defend your right to say it.

Wanting people prosecuted and finding the cartoons offensive does not mean they wanted the cartoonists slaughtered, does it?

And what is the punishment in Sharia for Blasphemy ?

...... Death... A sentence that awaits Assia Bibi among just a few & against which the vast vast majority of muslims remain silent.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/18/lahore-high-court-asia-bibi-death-penalty

The two politicians who did stand up for her were assassinated.

Still no condemnation or demonstration from the moderates. In fact the assassins were lauded.

The mud slinging at the french security services have already started. What did they know? Why didn't they see it coming?

A red herring that completely misses the point. The question is why aren't measures in place to remove suspected dangerous individuals from society. An estimated 1000 french nationals have reportedly been to fight in Syria and returned to France. Similar numbers in Britain, we are ticking times bombs built by our own tolerance.

What a nice xenophobic islamophobic thread.
How many of you know Muslims? How many of you are scholars of their Quran and Hadith? I know plenty who have explained articulately using evidence from their holy book (that's not been twisted and contextualised to suit biased agenda like on MN) about issues such as apostasy and free speech. I have extended family members and know friends who will be terrified to go out of their houses in their headscarves due to the current events in France. The vitriol on here makes me understand exactly why.

As was said on the previous thread, no one is showing islamophobia. a phobia is an irrational fear of something. To be scared of Islam in the current climate is perfectly rational

I understand that there are people today that will be worried to leave their homes in their scarves. That is awful and unacceptable.

However, what happened yesterday was horrendous and there is absolutely no excuses or justification. How can drawing a cartoon ever mean you deserve to be murdered?

Miranda, surely everyone has a point of view and therefore a bias to how they interpret anything?

It's not rational at all. Why? Because the vast vast majority of Muslims who practise the religion ie praying 5 times a day, fasting and giving charity regularly are doing what islam asks of them. It's the people who take things to new levels who one must fear, and believe me, Muslims are fearful of them as well. These terrorists are exactly that. Not law abiding humans like their fellow brethren.

It's because all these atrocities are done in the name of Islam. No matter how many times you say they are not true muslims, they are muslims.
Any religion which advocates murder if you leave the religion or take the piss out of it will scare people.
There are people right now on the radio saying that it is understandable this happened because of a cartoon. These are members of the British public excusing this action.
Turn on radio 5 and you will see why islam is scary

And our very own nut job Anjem Choudhary justifying the carnage:

Contrary to popular misconception, Islam does not mean peace but rather means submission to the commands of Allah alone. Therefore, Muslims do not believe in the concept of freedom of expression, as their speech and actions are determined by divine revelation and not based on people's desires.
www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/01/07/islam-allah-muslims-shariah-anjem-choudary-editorials-debates/21417461/

Anjem (a beer drinking moderate known as Andy at Uni before he became radicalised) is by no means alone in his views. The Federation of Student Islamic Societies, the umbrella body for Islamic Societies on campuses regularly hosts and promotes a range of extremist hate preachers. www.studentrights.org.uk/tag/Federation+of+Student+Islamic+Societies?page=1

Good morning all
As you know, Mumsnet has form for being about free speech but would remind you that our PRIMARY raison d'être is to make lives easier
Here's a link to our talk guidelines.
Thanks all

Its pretty patronising to people to think they cant pick up the subtleties of the Quran (the pure undoctored word of god) and Hadiths/Sunnah (observation custom)

My views have hardened of moderates as they aren't prepared to grasp the nettle and say the Quran is wrong, i.e the slaying of critics.

I have no truck with Hadiths Sunnah as they are open to interpretation and discussion.

Bakewellslice read my post again.

I was talking about uneducated laymen taking quotes off of anti-islam websites and posting them on MN. These quotes have been contextualised and twisted into a certain bias. When people on MN read them and don't have any basic education in islam, they believe exactly what they see. Contrary to the stuff I've seen on MN regarding free speech and apostasy, I've been shown speeches by Islamic scholars such as Tariq Ramadan and Yasir Qadhi who refute with clear evidences, the general slander being spread about islam.

MN is in general a mostly Caucasian middle/working class forum and despite various university degrees and the odd 'my dc's are mixed race/dh is Muslim' comment, seem to lap up a huge amount of what the media throw at them. It doesn't bode well for the future and I can see friends and extended family emigrating to escape potential danger and Nazi type propaganda.

Not patronising really, no. The Quran was revealed in Arabic yes? It has been translated into a Germanic language from a Semitic language, we can agree on that yes? Consequently there have been many literary and grammatical errors on occasion when translated. The speeches that my friends have shown me use text from the Quran and Hadith explaining things such as apostasy and other such issues. They refute them entirely. Now there are millions of Muslims in the world, if islam itself was the problem, don't you think Muslims as a whole would be killing people all over the place according to the apparent teaching of their scripture? There's sure as hell enough of them to create a mass exodus for power over a lot of the world. But they don't, because that's not what islam teaches.

MirandaSings26 go back and read the first part of this thread and answer the questions we've asked about why the moderates are right about what Islam says versus what the extremists say versus what the scriptures say.

And you are right the extremists hate the moderates just as much as the non-muslims, which is why so many of them too are killed and tortured by them. Arguably the extremists are a greater threat than we are to muslims, so shouldn't we all be clearing up the confusion ?