to think britain is a difficult place to be if you're muslim ( part 2 )

[adsy]

The attack on Charlie Hebdo.
Shall we have 3 guesses who's responsible?

yes Back that's exactly what I am saying

I am not sure why peoples choice NOT to eat Halal trumps peoples choice to eat it

surely a nice little compromise would be for the 10% that isn't stunned to be sold in specialist shops and the 90% that is to be sold freely and used freely

then we can all stop getting our knickers in a knot - I'm sure the animals don't like being killed full stop - so if animal welfare is really the issue of course it isn't then going veggie would be the logical thing to do :)

So you really are saying that if non-muslims don't want to eat halal that we should go without and it doesn't matter at all, but if a Muslim couldn't get halal that would be unacceptable?

I note that you don't approve of both having what they want and I can understand that as Allah wouldn't like to think of any non-halal meat even existing.

That's shocking, but keep posting that. People need to see what is happening.

Back
Animals are stunned and have their throats cut = non halal
Animals are stunned and a prayer is said whilst they are having their throats cut = halal

Spot the difference.

How do you think most animals are slaughtered in an non-halal slaughterhouse, are you worried about them waking up?

One thing about animal welfare. Our current methods are not that great either, but they have been gradually improving because people have been complaining and campaigning.

If you agree that Islam or Judaism must have complete control of how this is done then there can be no more progress and no point in any more campaigns. In a thousand years we'll still be doing it the same way because it's Allah's/Jehovah's will.

Back
It was the one of the supermarkets that spoke about the sale of sheeps heads etc. They are eaten in the Middle East but are rarely eaten in the UK so if the meat is halal they can sell them but if it isn't they can't because there isn't much of a market for them in the UK.

Dr Taj a liberal Muslim, thinks we are making massive mistake to let it slip in food chain and I agree with him.

He knows far more about the Quoran and whats actually going on than I do.

halal meat is "covert religious extremism and creeping Islamic fundamentalism making its way into Britain by the back door"

Chaz, ah I get it now. thanks.

What is your objection to halal slaughter if it uses the same stunning and slaughter method as non-halal; the difference being the meat is blessed?

I think that people should have the right to choose between halal and non-halal but people should also understand that in very many cases the only difference is a blessing of the meat.

"Supermarkets selling halal products say they stun all animals before they are slaughtered. Tesco says the only difference between the halal meat it sells and other meat is that it was blessed as it was killed."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27324224

well if you read the article you will know why.

This is covert religious extremism and creeping Islamic fundamentalism making its way into Britain by the back door. It is completely wrong that the food sensitivities of Britain’s Muslims — who amount to just 4.8 per cent of the population — should take precedence over the other 95 per cent.

Halal meat should never be forced on customers without their knowing, surreptitiously and using clandestine methods. It’s unfair to everyone, non-Muslims and Muslims alike. It’s deception on a grand scale for the former, while it could fuel bitter resentment against the latter.

Will
Nice reasoned response there

Sorry that was a reply to your first response.

I was asking what the object to halal slaughter was not the selling of halal meat. I have already said people should have a choice.

There are a number of overlapping problems with halal.

I say the animal should be killed so quickly it can't feel pain, or stunned first if it can be ensured that it can't feel pain.

One of the typical responses in articles about it is that mostly they are stunned. Which is not really an answer if it's not an oversight that will be corrected, but a preference.

As I mentioned before, in the long term we may develop an even better method, but we can't once we agree that all further decisions will be made by Allah.

Now people have said that this must be decided by Islam because it really matters to Muslims.

So what happens if my religion requires a cow to be told a bedtime story and then drowned in olive oil? Will my religious needs be considered? I rather suspect I'd be told "no, only Islam matters". That is unacceptable in itself and if that argument prevails then what about the next difference of opinion?

I think we should know. It should be marked kosher or halal.

I don't expect where I live ( loads of muslims) schools to serve anything but halal meat obviously for practical reasons. We have a very large jewish population locally too so if you live with sons who basically live off ham, sausages, bacon and the like ( as I do) and you go to school round here you are not going to get your food needs met but that's the price we pay for the benefits most immigrants give us in London. 25% of where I live in Hindu too and they have restrictions relating to cows too so meat is a very big issue and school meals.

Isn't it Sikhism which specifically prohibits praying over a slaughtered animal? Sikhism requires the animal to be killed quickly, without suffering or religious ritual. Much as my preference as an atheist is.

Sikhs cannot eat meat which has been slaughtered according to Islamic rituals.

So Chaz your response is presumably tough, Sikhs and me can become vegetarian.

Chaz are you also suggesting that if a more efficient , less pain free method were invented it shouldn't be used unless it meets Islamic criteria?

Aarhg "Sikhs and I...."

No not at all. I said that people should have choice - I think you are mixing me up with another poster.

My point was that Halal slaughter is often "mechanically" the same as non-halal the difference being the prayer not the method.

I don't think all meat should be halal

PhaedraIsMyName I was going to mention them :)

I find very confusing the fact that some consider that we should not care about eating Halal, but we can just forget about more than half a million persons.... No, please, do not tell me it's double standards?? Gasp!

I dont need to reason Chaz, its all in the article written by a progressive, liberal Muslim who is trying to create a modern Islam, an Islam that allows men and women to pray together and is forward thinking.

ghostland- that isn't true about being easier to choose not to buy kosher meat

I have posted the links on these threads before. The back "half" of every kosher sheep goes into the mainstream meat market as it's tricky to make it kosher. And is has done for so long no kosher butcher still alive and working in the UK know how to make the hind quarters kosher anymore. Kosher meat is not stunned.

With halal meat (which is generally stunned and the unstunned meat is sold in specialist shops) it is the opposite market force. To avoid waste sheep are being slaughtered in the halal manner so that unpopular cuts can be sold to the halal market.

I do think people should be able to buy meat that isn't halal slaughtered. But they will have to accept it will be more expensive for the same cuts to subsidise the parts not being sold (or i suppose a revival of offal which the waitrose magazine had been suggesting was imminent for years).

People who want to buy this need to come up with a term and symbol/certification process, a "secular slaughter scheme"

Muslims don't buy the "secret" halal meat because they don't know it's halal and so shouldn't be blamed for the decisions made due to capitalism not religion.

Sorry Chaz it was ghosty who made the vegetarian remark.

She also said I'm not sure why peoples choice NOT to eat Halal trumps peoples choice to eat it but as the lack of labelling doesn't bother her she's quite happy presumably for the choice to eat Halal meat to trump every one else's choice.

Muslims don't buy the "secret" halal meat because they don't know it's halal and so shouldn't be blamed for the decisions made due to capitalism not religion

Sorry but I have no idea what you mean by this.

Phaedra
Thanks.

I think clear labelling is the answer. Even if the slaughter methods are the same, if people aren't happy (or allowed ) to eat meat blessed by another religion, they should be able to choose not to.

Sorry probably should have been clearer.

It isn't Muslims buying the meat that is slaughtered halal but not labelled as halal and sold as run of the mill meat in supermarkets or whatever (that was what I meant buy secret). They buy meat from halal butchers or in packets labelled as halal in other shops, meat they know is halal.

It's capitalism, motivated by profit and trying to sell stuff at the best prices on an open market that has driven the decision of big retailers to sell the meat without labelling its origins.

We just have a halal menu and a non halal menu at school. Kids are free to choose whatever.

Job done