to think britain is a difficult place to be if you're muslim ( part 2 )

[adsy]

The attack on Charlie Hebdo.
Shall we have 3 guesses who's responsible?

So you think anything is fine as long as it's done in the name of a person's religion? ( barring illegal acts?). The fact that a lot of the customs are barbaric doesn't matter to you?

Username12345, when I make the comparison it's frequently in a specific context.

Christian says to me "Can you prove god doesn't exist?" and I say "of course not, but you can't prove Thor doesn't exist, but you don't go around believing in him do you"

Get it now?

You see these religious terrorists believe that their religion takes precedence over any country's laws, so they take your opinion to its logical conclusion and do what they want in the name of their religion it's just that they will disregard laws if need be.
To say anything done in the name of religion must be tolerated is dangerous

Just to follow adsys point, when Britain became a protestant country, the Pope effectively gave Catholics a license to slaughter the heretics. The gunpowder plotters (terrorism is so old hat) were acting to bring about their religion in this country.

Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose ...

Moniker, a number of the radicalised Muslims we have seen (7/7 bombers, Woolwich pair..) were born here. It's missing the point to talk about people coming in droves-many of those who seem to hate us so much are British yet they hate Britain. Why?

Also talking of they, who are we talking of? In the UK we could talk about, historically. Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, Turkish, Somalians, Arabs coming to the UK. Many of these would have been Muslims but their experiences and reasons for coming will be poles apart.

Pakistanis in Bradford who mostly came from Kashmir to work in the mills to backfill because we had labour shortages. The industry has now gone. Interestingly some of the 7/7 bombers would likely have been the offspring of some of those people. What happened when the industry died-did the opportunities they foresaw for their children die too? It's important to pay attention to areas like Bradford where there is significant segregation/ghettoisation. As Sarkozy said "to humiliate is to radicalise". None of this makes killing right but we need to ask -where did the hatred come from.

chicken you're in danger of trying to understand the nutters. many many white Christian background young men are unemployed and living in ghetto type areas with no hope of life improvement. They don't strap bombs on themselves. This is a particularly muslim problem

I apologise if this has been posted before but frankly it should be shouted from the rooftops.

m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-30744693

BackOnlyBriefly

I'm not privy to your conversations. I'm discussing what was said on this thread and others and in the manner it is usually conveyed.

ghostland They're not doing anything illegal so the animal rights groups may be offended, but they are not going to dissuade anyone by insulting people and their beliefs.

It's not about trumping beliefs. They are both free to carry out their beliefs. One with circumcision and kosher/halal slaughter, the other by protesting/petitioning, etc.

adsy So you think anything is fine as long as it's done in the name of a person's religion? ( barring illegal acts?).

No.

many many white Christian background young men are unemployed and living in ghetto type areas with no hope of life improvement. They don't strap bombs on themselves.

They do commit crimes though. And if there was a drive to recruit those individuals, could you so easily say they would say no?

Apparently it is his own fault, you shouldn't insult Islam. If I understand that French Muslim journalist interviewed on BBC news and the other Muslim expert as well, we should enter a dialogue with muslims about blasphemy and limits to freedom of speech. I must say I am not interested in such a debate, if I was I could just move to Saudi Arabia after all. Then again I may not have to, in 20 years we may be flogged here in Europe if we insult Islam. Politicians don't want to open their eyes and journalists except a few exceptions cower. Who could have believed that the BBC had banned pictures of Mohammed, is that what licence fees are being used for? Shame on pandering to those who want to destroy Western civilization.

They do commit crimes though. And if there was a drive to recruit those individuals, could you so easily say they would say no?

But there isn't a drive to recruit them to commit terrorist acts is there? There are no radical Christians /Jews/Atheists/ Jehovah's Witnesses trying to sign them up.

I concede they might be cannon fodder for UKIP or even worse EDL/BNP. In which case no-one, including me, will hold off criticising them, nor be particularly sympathetic in how they came to be radicalised.

we should enter a dialogue with muslims about blasphemy

I'm happy to enter in a dialogue with anyone re blasphemy, apostasy and heresey. It'll be a very short dialogue . Anyone who considers any of these to be crimes is simply wrong. End of dialogue. There are some absolutes.

It's missing the point to talk about people coming in droves

Yes and no. We have two problems and one solution won't deal with both.

One is people born here - British Citizens with the same rights as any of us - who are dissatisfied/radicalised and we have to look at that, but the other is large numbers of people coming here now who naturally have their own culture and which is incompatible with ours.

We can't DO anything to those who live here, but we can reasonably say that we want to limit immigration to a trickle - at least until we get our own house in order.

Username "They're not doing anything illegal so the animal rights groups may be offended, but they are not going to dissuade anyone by insulting people and their beliefs.

It's not about trumping beliefs. They are both free to carry out their beliefs. One with circumcision and kosher/halal slaughter, the other by protesting/petitioning, etc. "

Well, the cartoonists weren't doing anything illegal either so the terrorists groups may be offended but they are not going to dissuade anyone by killing people because of their beliefs.

When the IRA were doing their bombing campaign, did anyone ask why their members were disenfranchised or radicalised and how what we could could do to make them feel less angry?

Ghostland - the IRA wanted a united Ireland , failing that the removal of discrimination against Northern Irish Catholics.

The first was untenable as the Protestant majority did not want it; the second was perfectly reasonable but the methods of trying to achieve it were not.

I have a right to draw and publish a picture of the Prophet Mohammed.

There have been lots of pictures for hundreds of years in the Muslim world. Also if the current religious "ban" is to stop idolatry - to stop people worshipping the picture instead of God surely a cartoon is the best picture of all to a Muslim as you are not going to worship a picture of him if it is just a cartoon and with a bomb on its head surely? It would be serious pictures in gold frames Muslims were kissing and worshipping to which greatest offence surely would be taken for muslims. The fact the cartoon is clearly not there for you to worship is surely a reason NOT to object to cartoons.

I want to live in a country where people can burn the national flag and pictures of the Queen and enjoy free speech.

Well I would like that too but I think we are the minority.

ghostland No, I imagine there wont be much of a change.

No need to get hysterical.

That answer had to do with a specific question, that you asked BTW. 'But why is "God" supposedly a lot more probable than Thor or fairies?'

We can't DO anything to those who live here, but we can reasonably say that we want to limit immigration to a trickle - at least until we get our own house in order

We can stop others coming into the country by making it a law passed to reduce terrorism. So all the reasons used to bring more into the country - arranged marriages etc, should be banned.

No reason someone who wants to marry a Pakistani can't move to Pakistan.

I agree we can't do anything about those who live here.

We will need to do something in relation to those living here whilst refusing to accept Western values.

They can sod off to many Muslim countries. We can't, we have Europe and that is it. We have no choice, we have to defend our values, our tolerance has been abused on a massive scale.

Perhaps we should encourage Muslim countries to embrace multiculturalism and let people of different ethnicities and faiths come and live in their countries and practice their cultures and religions? It would be good for Muslims to learn about other cultures and practices, just as it is good for people in the West to learn about other cultures. As multiculturalism is presumably a universal good, then it should apply to all countries.