Advent calendar punishment

[LittleMissRayofHope]

Dd is 2.5 and going through a tough stage with defiance and tantrums etc. She's quite advanced (confirmed by nursery and development specialist not just me being pushy partner!) anyway, I have a great big santa decoration with numbered pockets as an advent calendar. Each night I fill tomorrow's pocket with a treat and something small.
This evening she was being quite naughty and I asked her twice to stop what she was doing. I told her I would tell santa and he wouldn't have a present for her tomorrow. She looked at me and purposefully did it again. This happened 3 times and then I walked to santa and told him what she had done. At first she laughed but by bedtime she was genuinely worried she won't get a present and she apologised to me and to santa.

DH thinks I should relent and fill the pocket. I'm not sure.
Is she too young? She will be heart broken tomorrow if there's nothing there.
Stick to my guns or accept the apology and hope she has learnt?

'I don't think I've ever met a child who is well behaved all the time.'

of course not because like the rest of us they are human.They do generally all want to please most of the time though.I guess children assimilate their moral compass from those around them.

Ragwort, I have four and no, their behaviour is not always perfect. I have patience. I have the patience to hold discussions and resolve disputes fairly and without threats. These things take time, I'm prepared to spend that time and given respect, mine do respect and are generally well behaved.

I think conflict based parenting styles, in turn teach a child control and manipulation. In a number of years, they will be the children saying 'I won't be your BFF, unless you do this, that or the other.'

Children learn so much more by example than by anything else. How we treat them is how they'll treat others.

OP, someone asked upthread what a "developmental specialist" is and you haven't answered. I'd be interested to know also.

I thought their 2-year check was at the baby clinic with a HV, though that may have changed since my teenagers were toddlers.

My very naughty DD is 2.5, she is bright as anything, talking like a child a year older. But she definitely wouldn't remember tomorrow. Although her memory is very good she only understands immediate consequences, and even then she still doesn't really understand the link with her behaviour despite lots of patient explanation. Give it 6 months, I'm sure it'll be easier (I hope!)

Bigbluestars - what happens when children who are raised without punishments encounter punishments in school, or in their adult life? Do they find it hard to cope with the idea that there can be negative, punitive consequences to their behaviour, when they have never encountered it in their home?

Not a snark, btw - a genuine question.

Sorry, missed the question regarding the specialist.
She did have her heck with the HV and was found average. Then the nursery found she was better suited to the age group above and they suggested an assessment so they could best enable her. I agreed and was presented with a 'development specialist'. Said woman carried out a assessment over a 2 week period and concluded she is advanced, roughly a year ahead.
I did not pay for this service so felt it wasn't one of these Mickey Mouse positions but I had ever heard of them either!!

What is the natural consequence of smacking your brother in the face or destroying all his toys? Because my 2.4 yr old does that a lot.

Well, the genuinely natural consequence of behaving aggressively towards others is that people avoid you. For preference, I'd probably try to enact this - with the explanation - by removing the aggressor from the social environment with toys. I'd expect to have to do this quite often. Lengthy punishments lose meaning for toddlers, and they have a very poor sense of future, so it needs to be a boring repetition over many short instances.

In a pressured environment, I have been known to smack a smacking kid. It's all very well explaining "this is how it feels, so that's why [other child] doesn't like it; it's wrong to hurt people" but, actually, I can't accelerate their theory of mind and the only lesson to be learned from a toddler's point of view is that violence is part of their life. Far from ideal, so I'd go for removal. I do regret all the smacks I've delivered. They weren't many, but I should never have done it.

Yes boundaries are important but you can't get too hung up on principles , because what's ok for a 3 year old is inappropriate (and won't work) for a 2 year old, and anyway different kids respond differently.

Runlikeagirl being physically removed from his brother and the toys?

OP I've been told that my DD is advanced beyond her 3 years by nursery and GP (because I was joking about how clever she was and they said that they had assessed her and she actually is ). One of the things they've said is that although she is advanced for her age, one of the things we need to be careful about is expecting too much of her. So, just because she is verbose and has good comprehension chatty and argumentative in my book I shouldn't expect too much in terms of behaviour because she is still a child.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius - my kids are well aware of the existence of punishments, at school and elsewhere.
It#s is an easy concept for them tu understand.
But they have never been punished at school, teachers have never had a need to punish them.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius Children raised without punishments are not raised without negative and aversive consequences of their behaviour.

Random example: say I asked my child (older) to stop playing on the iPad and they didn't listen and argued about it, or something, then I might say "OK, you can't use the iPad for X time". It is a natural consequence that if I cannot trust them to use it within the agreed rules that the privilege will be withdrawn.

Now say I was out somewhere with my child and they misbehaved, I would not say "You're not allowed to use the iPad this weekend" or "I'm taking away your presents". That is punishment. Punishments are unrelated to the 'crime' and are purely aversive - you did something wrong, so now I'll do something unpleasant to you back.

But to answer your question, they cope fine. I never used reward charts or naughty steps or time outs (actually, I have once or twice sent to room, but only at an older age), but they have encountered those systems at nursery and school and adapt fine.

Most of adult life involves consequences rather than punishment anyway. If you don't do your job, you'll lose it. If you don't pay your bills, your credit rating will suffer. If you're crap to people, you'll piss them off and lose friends. If you don't look after your health, you'll end up with negative consequences. There are very few punishments in life, except for criminal behaviour.

I didn't label her advanced. I was told she is. I just thought she was bright but was told she sits in a top 2% bracket or something. I felt that had relevance as I feel she operates beyond her age so should be treated as such.

She may well be. But at 2.5 she hasn't been around that long so what she doesn't have is any 'life experience' and that really needs to be taken into account, therefore you can't always treat her as older than her years. Especially when we're talking actions and consequences.

The little you have described of her behaviour sounds like typical toddler behaviour so respond to that age, not a four year-old.

LittleMiss
I think you have to separate physically/mentally advanced from emotionally advanced - in my experience, DC who are seen to be advanced often suffer because people expect them to be e.g. like a 3.5yr old in emotionally understanding, and they just aren't.

Treat her like a 2.5 year old, and don't expect more from her. That way, you are pleasantly surprised when she does 'more', but not disappointed when she doesn't behave like a 3.5 yr old.

I'm still puzzled about why the nursery, having decided your DD would be better suited to the older group, didn't just put her in that group to see how she got on, rather than call in a "developmental specialist".

Bringing in experts to carry out assessments cost money, and even if you didn't pay the bill, either the nursery (if it's private) or your LA, would have had to. Seems odd when the resolution was simply to put her in another group.

Presumably you were given a copy of the report the assessor carried out - surely it said more than that she sits in the top 2% bracket or something.

Tired excited 2 year old? I would let her have her treat and also as pp said put in a little note from Santa saying thank you for saying sorry. Forget it and move on.

I'm also curious and interested in this no threat/punishment method. Have you any more books to recommend. Currently, we use something similar to the 1-2-3 system (although we rarely have to use it) and if there is a way to cut it out all together that would be beneficial.

OP, glad things got sorted :)

theconversation.com/gentle-parenting-explainer-no-rewards-no-punishments-no-misbehaving-kids-31678

www.amazon.co.uk/Parenting-Without-Punishment-Problem-Behavior/dp/0914783785/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

You lot would really hate me, playing with DD (3), I was the baby and she was the mam "right, if you throw that one more time it's going straight in the bin!"

no prizes for where she gets that from

the nursery found she was better suited to the age group above
Ah that old chestnut!!
.For the 2-3 age group there needs to be 1 adult to 4 kids, but in the 3+ age group there will be 8 children to each adult, so there is usually unfilled capacity in the 3+ groups.
You have been had OP

Fan that's just the same as TalesoftheCity's ipad example isn't it? Punishment according to this theory would be "if you throw that one more time, I'll confiscate your favourite doll".

This thread has been v informative. I have learned that I don't punish, I do natural consequences! I thought I was just disciplining my children in a way that might make logical sense to them.

One thing we have never really considered is consequences carrying on for multiple days. At school even in Y2 (and probably beyond) every child starts the day with a clean slate. I think if that works for 7 year olds, 2 year olds deserve it too.

She may well be advanced but she still only has 2.5 years of experience at life.

At 2.5 years all of her 'naughtiness' will be trivial.

Don't sweat it though, everyone messes up parenting sometimes.

My youngest daughter started preschool in September, at her first parents evening we were expected to be told how naughty she is for them, picks on other kids etc (in her home defence she's 3 of 4 and the others all have physical disabilities or on the spectrum so she's one confused madam) but they told us she is the most kind, caring child they have, she makes sure every child is included and if she's not noticed a left out child they say "Dot will you look after this child they're feeling left out". Not only that they've run out of preschool work for her so sending home YR work for her to do at home. As I've said, this is not "home" Dot. I wouldn't start to try and discipline based on "school" Dot because that's not who we care for. Our Dot would have said "so I pushed my brother over? Take my Advent, I don't care, he should walk" (he's 2 and has CP, yes that's happened ) and if it wasn't there she'd shrug or pretend to cry until we said she's not getting it then shrug.

Your daughter may be bright but she's 2 year old bright, there's the difference between knowledge and wisdom. she don't know yet how to apply her knowledge.

she apologised, Thank her and move on. You're not going to teach her good lessons if you keep going with things after everyone is sorry and friends again. Why should she own up to things? Why should she apologise? As others have said I mean this in relation to consequences v punishment, not that sorry excuses you from consequences.

just read some more of the consequences/punishments conversation. My kids and my best mate's are all scared of me . In my family only Mum has as much power as me to "I say, you do" and if I'm at my mates house "do I have to call Aunty Confuddled to get you in your night clothes?" is a common cry when I'm there. Her kids know if I came up they'd have the count of 5 to dress themselves (count not seconds, and it stops if they start behaving) or they lose part of bedtime routine - consequence of taking so long and stressing Mummy out is she doesn't have time to read and needs alcohol . Even my autistic 6 year old has had her ipad put away for the night because she refused to talk to me (not her issue before I'm seen as evil). toys don't get thrown around the room, I catch them I keep them, hit me with them and you're waiting longer to get them back. You break a beloved toy of your siblings you replace it until Mummy can. It's not often I have to be mean but if I point to my fave and say what face is this and they see my sad face they know something needs to happen. usually I'm the one on the floor with them, doing tattoos, giving them funky hairstyles (doesn't take many one sided plaits at school before they sit still) teaching them the finer details about geekcraft (4 spectrum out of 6, it needs to be done ) and that David Tennant is the Doctor... The main reason those six kids do what I ask is they know I'm fair and on their side but sick to my guns (even whilst popping out the room so I can snigger because it's not me to be stern ). My step sons I've never had to put to the test because they know I'll have fun with them, I've stuck up for them when Daddy was in the wrong and when I ask or tell I'm reasonable. The other three parents they drive nuts and the eldest of the two now does what I do with his siblings.