Advent calendar punishment

[LittleMissRayofHope]

Dd is 2.5 and going through a tough stage with defiance and tantrums etc. She's quite advanced (confirmed by nursery and development specialist not just me being pushy partner!) anyway, I have a great big santa decoration with numbered pockets as an advent calendar. Each night I fill tomorrow's pocket with a treat and something small.
This evening she was being quite naughty and I asked her twice to stop what she was doing. I told her I would tell santa and he wouldn't have a present for her tomorrow. She looked at me and purposefully did it again. This happened 3 times and then I walked to santa and told him what she had done. At first she laughed but by bedtime she was genuinely worried she won't get a present and she apologised to me and to santa.

DH thinks I should relent and fill the pocket. I'm not sure.
Is she too young? She will be heart broken tomorrow if there's nothing there.
Stick to my guns or accept the apology and hope she has learnt?

I don't punish my children in the same way that I don't punish my husband.

Behaviours have natural consequences, but they are not extrinsic, they are related to the behaviour.

I was brought up without punishment in the 1960s, these are not new concepts.

I'm intrigued, though I don't fundamentally disagree with you.

Would you give any warning / tell the child in advance of a natural consequence or would that count as a threat?

Of course I would try to halt or arrest a negative course of action, but not by using a threat.

(So, for example, I have a finite window to get my nearly 2 year old into bed, because I have 3 month old twins who also need feeding / soothing at that time of the day. A natural consequence of messing about is an abridged bedtime, because if it takes longer to do the essentials there's less time for anything else - there's a limit to how long I can leave babies to their own devices and it's physically impossible to shush 2 babies while getting toddler into cot. I could say a) if you get into your PJs quickly, there'll be time for stories" (reward) or b) "if you don't get into your PJs quickly there'll not be time for stories" (threat) or c) just not say anything and crack on with what can be done and ignore the messing about. Which would you suggest?

Tantrums and defiance are part of this stage in her life OP. However, 'advanced' she might have been labelled to be, yes she should learn that that sort of behaviour doesn't get results, this punishment is barmy. Any consequence needs to relate to the tantrum. For example, when my younger son threw his dinner off the table, because he didn't want to eat, he was sent away from the table (hates being away from us) and made to pick the potatoes, broccoli off the floor when he came back. He's slighty more than a year older than yours and your punishment would mean nothing to him.

I have avoided punishment as best I can too in general, but I think it is an especially bad idea to link chocolates/sweets/etc with "being good" and "naughty". You just need to listen to the average office of adult women always on a diet and the way cake/chocolate is talked about in terms of being good/naughty etc.

Your Santa decoration sounds like our Jesus picture on the wall at Sunday School. The teacher spent half of Sunday morning telling us how he loved us, and the other half saying he was watching us all the time to see if we were good. Nice, eh? But it was the 50s, and folk didn't care much about little children's sensibilities.

I suggest - kindly - that you're creating much of the so-called bad behaviour by winding the poor child up as Christmas nears. Stop talking about it. Stop reminding her of the excitement to come. I don't care how "advanced" she is, her concept of time is not yours. Don't use Santa to control your DD's behaviour - accept that she is 2, forget that she's "quite advanced" (they all are, believe me) and take responsibility for your parenting.

And OP - if she's really advanced for her age, what's she thinking when she sees her mother speaking to a picture? At that age my (amazingly advanced, obviously) children would have laughed at the joke.

OP what did you do in the end?

Mine are all adult now but I did always follow through on threats and would have done in this case. One advent treat is not going to cause any child long term trauma!

I could say a) if you get into your PJs quickly, there'll be time for stories" (reward) or b) "if you don't get into your PJs quickly there'll not be time for stories" (threat) or c) just not say anything and crack on with what can be done and ignore the messing about. Which would you suggest?

Its not reward and threat is it. If stories are part of your normal routine then they are not a reward, not having time for stories is a natural consequence not a thing you do.

Back when I studied psychology it was widely believed (based on much research) that authoratative parenting was the style that had the best outcomes for children. Authoratative parenting does include punishment as well as respect and reward. The idea was that children need very clear boundaries and that clearly communicated and 'fair' punishment systems helped children to define their boundaries and that this made them feel secure and have trust in their parents as well as a feeling of security.

Authoritative parents are also strict, consistent, and loving, but their values and beliefs about parenting and children are markedly different. Authoritative parents are issue-oriented and pragmatic, rather than motivated by an external, absolute standard. They tend to adjust their expectations to the needs of the child. They listen to children's arguments, although they may not change their minds. They persuade and explain, as well as punish. Most importantly, they try to balance the responsibility of the child to conform to the needs and demands of others with the rights of the child to be respected and have their own needs met (see page 891, above). 1

I prefer to follow this model rather than one where a child never has consequences to his actions regardless of how negative those actions might be. At what age and what level of behaviour do you bring in punishment? Does it never happen? What if a teenager is running wild, getting excluded from school, stealing things from the family home, do you still allow them to do as they please with no fear of consequences? Would you allow them to continue a path of destruction rather than punish them by means such as grounding, stopping pocket money, taking away technology?
I'm really not sure how this system works on a long term basis.

Needs yeah, you're right. I guess it's just that 'If X, then Y' seems like the same form that a reward or threat takes

I do use consequences and punishment. My toddler is now nearly 3 and comes across as "advanced" (early talker). But I agree with the other posters that it is easy to over estimate her emotional intelligence. I wouldn't carry a punishment over to the next day. Immediate and preferably related to the bad behaviour consequences are much more effective. In this case I would just let it go now. I expect she won't remember the bad behaviour or the consequence unless you remind her. I don't think you should always "negotiate" with a toddler but no need to turn everything into a power struggle either.

I agree with Bigbluestars. I was brought up without punishment from my parents when my behaviour wasn't great. My Mum in particular placed a lot of emphasis on 'being kind' and 'understanding'. My Dad was quite 'political' and keen on discussing things anyway - they definitely wanted to equip me with the ability to think for myself about my actions, not just do/not do something because of punitive measures. Both of us have turned out normal, civilised adults and we weren't particular 'difficult' children when we were growing up as a result of them encouraging 'self discipline'. My brother had a 'difficult' time from 14-16 but he took responsibility for himself and turned things around academically - he is now a Partner in a City Law firm. When he was being 'challenging' at this age my parents never punished him. We both just had a strong sense of wrong/right by this age and I'm sure that our upbringing was responsible, so it 'can' be done.

inthedark- but part of the approach of no punishment is allowing children to develop their own moral compass, rather than simply respond to external punishments.

I have older children- my oldest is nearly 18, and has never been punished. His behaviour is impeccable, he is polite, considerate, calm and happy. Teachers comment on the behaviour of my kids.

In the ends agreed to see what would happen when she woke this morning.
First thing she said was 'mummy, you spoke to santa? I was naughty' so we put part of the thing in (without her seeing) and said if she was good she would get the second part after naptime. It seemed to work.

In hindsight I see that this was a stupid course of action. Particularly speaking to him. It kind of snowballed away from me. I was so tired and frustrated by her behaviour I just said it without thinking and then felt committed.

Thanks for comments all.
She's my eldest and I'm learning!!

I don't understand why people use Santa as a threat anyway How do you parent the other 11 months of the year.

inthedark- but part of the approach of no punishment is allowing children to develop their own moral compass, rather than simply respond to external punishments.

But does that work with all children? Thinking of Theories of criminology and (If my memory is correct) Caesar Lambrosos theories that some children are born deviant then it seems that not all children have the moral compass or the ability to develop it and regulate their behaviours. I'm not sure that Lambroso theories are entirely accurate but twin studies have sometimes shown that genetics is as important as parenting. What about children with ODD or similar conditions; they certainly don't have the ability to self regulate their behaviours.
I'm sure that some children do have the ability to develop the moral compass required to self regulate but I don't believe that we can say that for all children and I think that some children do benefit from punishment systems such as time outs or losing specific 'benefits' for a period of time.

LittleMiss it's a tough age isn't it? my Dd is now closer to 3 and the tantrums are definitely less frequent. On the other hand she is more stubborn now so they are often more protracted.

2.5, she is testing boundaries. Most (probably all) children will do exactly what they have been told not to do at that age. Must better to give her something else to do rather than keep saying don't do it. Using Santa as a threat to a 2 year old
She is too young to connect those things, stop being so mean

I'd also be curious to know what sort of "treat and something small" you mean. I'll be flamed for this but I think at that age a small chocolate bar, packet of buttons or whatever every single day is unnecessary and possible isn't helping her behaviour.

She is 2.5 and excited about Christmas.You are expecting too much from her.I have never really punished my children, but have explained why some behaviour is unacceptable.Eventually the message gets through.Children want approval and generally try to be good.

Being advanced doesn't mean she doesn't succumb to toddler impulses.

I have a bright three year old. She is cheeky personified. Sometimes I resort to timeouts etc and the odd threat but I feel shitty doing it. I feel better when I've managed to get her to do something without threat. Takes a little more time but wins all round.

Ah, poor child.
You teach children the expected behaviour, you socialise and encourage discipline not punish.
What on earth will your child life be like if you punish for such trivial things.
Her behaviour is age appropriate and being advanced has newt to do with it.

Take a step back and take a chill pill and I'm sure you'll see her behaviour isn't behind her years.

I ould be careful with labelling your child as advanced at this age pretty much anything is normal.

Interesting to see I have punished her for something trivial... I haven't said what she was doing that was naughty. The reason I haven't stated what she did is to some it will be the end of the earth, to others average naughtiness and to others it will be nothing at all.

I didn't label her advanced. I was told she is. I just thought she was bright but was told she sits in a top 2% bracket or something. I felt that had relevance as I feel she operates beyond her age so should be treated as such.

The treat and something small is usually an Organix oaty bite and some stickers or a peppa pig hair clip. Sometimes it's a mini gingerbread man.
This week it has been pieces to a threading toy and she has been very excited as each day she is getting a new part.
I also don't believe in chocolate each day. Chocolate is a rarity In out house.

Children want approval and generally try to be good.

Not all children want or care about approval or 'generally try to be good' .

I am really quite interested in those who say they 'have never punished their child' - are they just inherently good and well behaved all the time? What if 'developing their own moral compass' is not living by the same moral compass that most of accept as 'normal'.?

It sounds a lovely theory but I don't think I've ever met a child who is well behaved all the time.