to think most people that are aloof, are actually just shy

[prankormistake]

not everyone but say 99%

I'm with Frusso a few posts above. I don't assume that people who don't engage in social chitchat are shy, agonised, introverted etc. I'm equally liable to assume they simply aren't particularly sociable, aren't interested in the subject under discussion, or that they don't particularly want to talk/to talk to me for some unspecified reason - and that's fine by me.

'Aloof' is a value judgement that suggests people should respond to social chitchat, whether they want to or not. It would be rude not to respond briefly to a direct greeting, I agree, but I don't think anyone has a duty to continue chitchat simply because they're in the presence of someone else.

I sometimes bring a novel or some work to toddler group, which may well look 'aloof' to others, but, as a Londoner now living in a village, I find the tenor of the general conversation incredibly incestuous and gossipy, and I'm impatient with the other main exchange, which goes

'Oh, I'm so FAT!'

'Noooo, you're TINY! Your thighs are like twigs, you lucky thing!'

'I had a stomach bug last week, and went below nine stone for the first time in two years! It was great!'

'I'm so FAT!'

Etc etc.

I agree aloof is a value judgement- why the obligation to chitchat about nothing? where's the respect for personal space, choice? what about other obligations unseen on someone's time? why does someone's need to talk about their thighs or natter about something inane override someone's pressingly urgent need to compose a work or political document and send it in the only spare 20 mins they may have in the whole week - how will that person feel if they are not allowed to do their work due to a social imposition from others?
I wonder if aspergers too, though, as I can be extremes of antisocial and tick all the other boxes as well (diagnosed ADHD) but
generally, I do try and be pleasant to people and will chat and things, when time allows - when there is no pressure to do this I am happy, but when pressured into something I tend to veer off 1000 miles in the other direction. I'm definitely not intending to be rude, but maybe it's not the apparently aloof ones who are out of line, it's those who place expectations upon them to conform to their own needs?

cafecita I'm definitely not intending to be rude, but maybe it's not the apparently aloof ones who are out of line, it's those who place expectations upon them to conform to their own needs?

That's fine if you exist in a vacuum, but if you exist in a society, then social rules mean you are generally expected to comply with certain "niceities", otherwise people will form certain opinions about you.

Presumably you exist in a society because of the benefits it gives you (job, health care, transport infrastructure, and maybe even company when it suits you?). We are not Neanderthals or cavemen and women, so it makes everyone's lives go smoother if they don't act selfishly and try to pleasant to others.

No-one is saying that means its compulsory to make inane chit chat about how fat you are for hours on end (interesting that no-one's picked up on the "I'm so fat" comment being typical of a quite shy person lost for words to say), but if you are unaware of social rules and cannot learn them, without having a condition that justifies this, then be aware that the society you are living in probably will judge you for it.

People talking about AS as being an excuse - really? I thought AS varied hugely and people with it were just as likely to talk too much, sometimes inappropriately. I used to volunteer with an AS group, and certainly my experience from that was of huge variation, but I very rarely had that feeling of deliberate, uncaring rudeness or being blanked by someone that I've had from people who just haven't bothered to develop basic social skills.

TheChandler, I acknowledge the importance of phatic communication as a way of greasing the wheels of general social come and go, and if course I do a bit of that, and don't sit with lips tightly shut in a pool of conspicuous silence, but it sounds as if you think social duty goes, or should go, further than that?

Incidentally, I'm really surprised you would read repeated declarations of fatness as the attempt to join in of a shy person lost for words! As someone who was a very shy, fat teenager, I would flinch every time the word 'fat' was mentioned by others, even if it was in the context of buying margarine, and would no more have drawn attention to my own oversized body than I would have taken off all my clothes on the street!

This perennial fat conversation, which - I'm not exaggerating - occurs at length every single week at this toddler group, and involves otherwise pleasant, ordinary women of a variety of body types, seems to be a sort of performance of self-deprecation in order to elicit contradictions and compliments. Harmless enough, I suppose, apart from all the unexamined assumptions about thinner being better and women's self-esteem resting entirely on a socially-acceptable appearance.

I've always thought (agreeing with some previous posters) that if you're still "shy" over the age of 8 then you need help (of parents, friends) to get over it, it's a serious social limitation in adult life as it alienates people who perceive it as rudeness.

Beangarda TheChandler, I acknowledge the importance of phatic communication as a way of greasing the wheels of general social come and go, and if course I do a bit of that, and don't sit with lips tightly shut in a pool of conspicuous silence, but it sounds as if you think social duty goes, or should go, further than that?

I have no idea! I wouldn't compel the whole of society to behave in a certain way or something. I think society (generalising hugely) is actually fairly tolerant of individual quirks, or eccentricity. However if you don't expect people to judge you for what comes across as rudeness, then you are being unrealistic. (not you personally, in general!) And don't complain about being left out of things if you continually fail to respond to social interaction.

My theory on this, if I have one, is that a lot of it is to with upbringing and "modes of behaviour" being passed on from generation to generation. I used to live in a part of the country which was noted for being rude. Even people from that part of the world admitted to it. All the examples I give above, of people turning their backs on me when I offered a handshake by way of introduction, and getting sacked from jobs, concern people from the same place (I won't say where it is). It was quite isolated, and it was noticeable that people who had lived in other places and then come back tended to be much more outgoing than those who had stayed.

"So it makes everyone's lives go smoother if they don't act selfishly and try to pleasant to others."

At the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum.... Why can't you see that the "chatters" are being at least as selfish and unpleasant by trying to force a conversation on someone who just wants to sit quietly and watch the world go by?

In fact, it's the chatters who are the rude ones in this situation. I wouldn't be affecting anyone else's life if I want to sit and read a book in the park after school (for ex), whereas it's the chatty ones who would be making demands on my time.

Why do you think (the hypothetical) you have the right to my time by trying to impose your idea of a social "nicety" on me?

SaucyJack Why do you think (the hypothetical) you have the right to my time by trying to impose your idea of a social "nicety" on me?

What on earth makes you think I would want to come and talk to you while you are reading a book in the park? Why do you think anyone would be that interested in you?

I'm talking about dinner parties and meeting people for the first time and introducing yourself! Or if someone says "hello" to you or "nice weather" and you are not reading a book, but at the school gates, or at a bus stop, what does it hurt to say hello back, and then if you don't want to talk, just let the conversation tail off?

Does this really need to be explained...

hmm I must move in different circles to saucy jack as I do not experience forced chat on a daily basis. I find people generally unlikely to make remarks to me and as I often have headphones on to make shopping in tesco more bearable, I probably don't hear it if they do. in the playground as I see the same people every day we bypass the getting to know you chat and are srptraight into the daily inanities tiny frustrations that are good to share.

When I am alone in a cafe or whatever people never disturb me while I am reading a book / staring into space/ making notes unless they need something. I have only been trapped in boring chat at the odd coffee morning/ playgroup where it is a social situation attended by choice so if I whipped The Bell Jar out of my handbag and ostentatiously began to read - that would be a bit rude, so I nod and smile and plan my escape. Hell is other people but it is possible to avoid them and when I think about some folk living in lonely misery I thank my stars for every awkward social occasion. ..

You can't not say which part of the country people turn their backs on a handshake, TheChandler!

As I said up the thread, I lived in London for a decade, and found it adequately friendly, though it's often portrayed as very offhand and chilly. I do think that life in a big city does make me ill-equipped to be as violently interested in the minutiae of my neighbours' lives as seems to be expected in this village. I sometimes find people nosy, and that something I've said to one person has been passed on as an item of general gossip, which has certainly made me close down conversationally.

I am aloof and reserved. I know I come across that way and it is fair comment.

I'm not shy. I used to be- I would feel physically awkward talking in a group or being the one to strike up a conversation. I was very literally self-conscious and would have a running commentary in my mind on how I was behaving and being perceived. I actually worked quite hard at one point to turn this commentary off and to make a real effort to join in conversation.

Now, I am not at all shy. I would describe myself as a 'gregarious introvert' in that my default status is being quiet and listening, rather than talking and engaging. However, I very rarely feel awkward in company and actually really enjoy meeting strangers and having those dinner party type conversations. I am quite good at turning on the social charm and having interesting conversations with people I don't know well or at all, and am able to create and draw people in to a lively discussion at parties etc.

My problem is that, as I said, my default is quiet reserve, and the social charm is like throwing a switch- it is either on or it is off. If I am in a group where there are a few naturally chatty people I will quite naturally take a back seat in the conversation and not say much. I think the contrast between this and when I have the charm turned on is what makes me seem aloof. I also think that perhaps I ask people too much about themselves and don't give enough away about myself, in fact I have to remind myself not to interrogate people too much.

It is an easy technique to get and keep a conversation going, but I think it adds to the general impression I give of being aloof.

I do think I am a nice person though. I am very loyal to my friends, I go out of my way to do things for them. I take a genuine interest in their lives and remember what they have told me. I never --or very very rarely- speak ill of anyone or gossip behind their backs. Where my aloofness causes me problems is moving from the category of 'interesting casual acquaintance' to 'friend'. I am good at the former and once I am in the 'friend' category I am ok, but it takes me a very long time to get from one to the other.

I would like to know a bit better how to fix this, but largely I accept that this is my personality and something I just have to work around.

Perhaps some of you need to understand the meaning of this and stop expecting people to behave how you want them to behave.

'If I am I because you are you and you are you because I am I, then I am not I and you are not you. But if I am I because I am I, and you are you because you are you, then I am I and you are you'

As a shy person I think I can usually tell the difference between someone who is shy and someone who is rude and aloof. I've had to work extremely hard to become more outgoing at work and I think I'm doing okay with it now. But I do find talking to people all day utterly exhausting and I still struggle to talk to people in social situations. I'm better one to one, with groups I tend to say very little. I find it quite hard to keep up with groups whereas one on one maybe there is more pressure on me to keep the conversation going, I don't know. I know full well that by not talking I'm probably drawing more attention to myself but my mind just goes blank and I don't know what to say. I stutter and get words mixed up as well quite a bit, I think my brain struggles with verbal communication whereas with written communication I'm pretty good. It's something I've had since childhood though, it's not like I consciously sit there and think "I shall sit here and say nothing, haha" it just seems to end up that way. I had a lot of problems interacting within the class when I first started school (I basically didn't) so who knows if there are underlying issues there. Oh and I blush a lot as well. Sometimes all people have to do is look at me and I start blushing, which is really embarrassing.

I don't care so much now I'm older. I've accepted I'm never going to be the life and soul of the party. I'm never rude to people, I think I did come across that way a bit when I was younger but I'm frequently told I'm very polite now.

An introvert's perspective on this:

I find it difficult to speak to people unless I know them really well. This is called being reserved. I do however make a huge effort to mask this and show a great deal of interest in people and have mastered the art of keeping a conversation going (even with those who don't make any effort whatsoever). I have mastered this talent to such a degree that I have been asked to 'host' and 'receive' people at functions because I'm - and I quote, "so good at this type of thing." It's a skill like any other and effort has to be made in order for it to look, well, effortless! I am middle-aged now which also helps. Social anxiety is a tricky thing and for some is almost impossible to overcome.

I must live near SaucyJack - uninvited social niceties daily becomes imposition on time equals further withdrawal to aloof and the niceties become invasive, unpleasant and draining. I'd love to sit for 10 mins and read a book. I know if I do that I'll be pestered. I even get pestered in silent areas in libraries (really) of course engage with 'hi how are you?' greetings eg picking up from school - not 'rude' outright but I go out of my way to keep it all to minimum - how does anyone have time to do anything otherwise

I must live near SaucyJack - uninvited social niceties daily becomes imposition on time equals further withdrawal to aloof and the niceties become invasive, unpleasant and draining. I'd love to sit for 10 mins and read a book. I know if I do that I'll be pestered. I even get pestered in silent areas in libraries (really) of course engage with 'hi how are you?' greetings eg picking up from school - not 'rude' outright but I go out of my way to keep it all to minimum - how does anyone have time to do anything otherwise

I go out of my way to keep it all to minimum - how does anyone have time to do anything otherwise

Indeed cafecita, I've met quite a few famous, extremely wealthy/talented people in my time, and I've been lucky and they have all been humble, friendly and kind enough to talk pleasantly to me, despite having what must be exceptionally busy schedules.

But clearly they are not busy enough, since they had time to speak to someone like me!

I really don't think anyone is suggesting that you have 20 minute conversations with every single person that you meet.

Such ignorance on this thread.

True shyness is due to lack of self esteem not "arrogance".

The arrogant people are those who claim that others must get over their social phobia as they are so wonderfully deserving of attention.

I hate staff Xmas parties enforced fun. I have a hearing problem which makes loud, chatty rooms of people a nightmare. I am kind and will go out of my way to help people. I just don't do it as an attention a seeking numpty, all 'Look at meeee!'.

(Disclaimer: I may be referring to a couple of colleagues!)

Hmm - I was once told that shyness was a form of arrogance - oh I'm so special everyone one will be looking at me!
Over the years I've come to agree.
Tbh I generally let shy, aloof people get on with it. I will make an effort if they don't respond - bugger them! Life's too short. I can feel horribly awkward in social situations and hate small talk and meeting new people. I don't even want to go to my work Xmas do. But I'm sure a few of my colleagues feel the same so I will go - chat away and if we all make an effort it will be fine.
Sometimes people need to just get over themselves a bit.

On the self esteem vs arrogance thing. I really wouldn't say I have high self esteem. I think nearly everyone has a critical inner dialogue. Low self esteem often to me just seems like another way to not take responsibility for yourself and think your special.

If you think that way then you don't have true shyness or social phobia.

I was once told that shyness was a form of arrogance - oh I'm so special everyone one will be looking at me!

Utter nonsense.

Sometimes people need to just get over themselves a bit.

I agree with this statement but probably not in the way you meant.

Shy people are arrogant? I guess fat people are greedy and lazy, smokers are selfish, people with OCD and anorexia just need to get a grip. I could go on. The amount of ignorance and arrogance on this thread is unbelievable.

I'd prefer to spend time with someone who has social anxiety attempting to build a friendship than all the twits in here. Lets hope you don't have a child with this condition. Life is too short to waste on you. The human race never fails to disappoint.