To think that a class limit of 30 is overly restrictive For infants

[ReallyTired]

My parents have new neighbours and they have a six year old boy who is currently being forced to travel 5 miles to primary. The lea is providing transport, but there are four primaries in walking distance. The sheer distance makes hard for the little boy to socialise with classmates. His parents are hoping to get a place in a local school in year 3.

I feel that one of the primaries could go over 30 children in a class with the children melting. Use of an extra ta could help with the logistics of 31 children. Why are year 2 children so much more fragile than year 3 children?

High performing countries like Singapore often have more than 30 in a class.

I went to a very small private school where our class size was 12. It was great, but even then having ADHD it was hard for me to keep up with all the noise and distractions.

I don't know what I would do with a class size of 30. That's too big even for NT children.

Sooty - the opinion of MNHQ is apparently that they'll let disablist stuff run because it opens up discussion. Apparently certain subjects are taboo, but discussing putting children with SNs in buses and shipping them elsewhere is okay.

I despair, MNHQ you have dropped the ball big time on this one.

I response to the OP. If there was no restriction on class sizes, people would just move to be in the area where they wanted their kids to go to school and you'd not be looking at 31 in a class but 301. You have to have a cut off and the community/society adjusts to it.

That there are 30 in a class has no educational research behind it but based on the maximum number of soldiers an Officer can command effectively.

Parents can go on a waiting list for the school of their choice and if they don't like traveling, home educate until a space becomes available. It's what HAS to happen here as there aren't any schools with places even 6 miles away.

YABU OP. Sooo unreasonable.
Am I the only one who is a bit when I think of the jump in ratio from a good preschool - 1:6 - to reception 1:30. Never mind the poor teachers, it must be a hell of an adjustment for such young children.

My parents were both teachers yonks ago and they have LOADS of stories of children with SEN IN their classes.

In those days they the kids were often branded as having behavioural problems rather than an identified specific learning difficulty causing behaviours as they might now.

SEN support was only marginally more shit in those days and for some it was actually better as the opportunity to access a teacher who was allowed to genuinely adapt was there.

'How would they fund the extra TA? Even if that one child has a statement (& they are like Hen's teeth) the school still has to fund the first £6k.'

The school has to pay £6k from their delegated SEN budget which they have been given as EXTRA from the LA. In the past they didn't get that and the LA would therefore give it.

'the range of children with SEN is huge, I think there is a point at which children with additional needs cannot be accommodated within a mainstream class and where their needs impinge on others, it's where the line is drawn that is the issue.'

The point at which children with additional needs cannot be accommodated or where their needs impinge on others, is the point at which their support in mainstream needs improvement.

'impinging' also needs definition.

Calm down Alice. What I was trying so say, and obviously very badly, is that as a child I wasn't aware of anyone in my class with extra needs.

I think children are perhaps more accepting of other children's behaviour.

I'm sure that now I am an adult it would be obvious. Also, I think children with significant SEN weren't in mainstream education.

'Also, I think children with significant SEN weren't in mainstream education.'

They were. They were just not in mainstream education if they were majorly disruptive. As a teacher, my mum had a child in her class who was 10 and sat on her lap for story-time.

Yes, looking back we had a lot of "naughty" boys in our class of 40. I imagine several of them would now have a diagnosis of ADHD or ASD. It is also my pet theory that the way schools were run forty years ago better met the needs of children with ASD than the primary schools of today.

There's something in that OneIn - I think many children with ASD probably would thrive in a very controlled classroom with little group work, where verbal reasoning was less highly prized. I'm in Scotland where the curriculum is called the Curriculum for Excellence - renamed in my house the Curriculum for Extroverts...

'Inclusion is a wonderful ideal for those who want it.'

Are you implying that someone my prefer NOT to have it?

Inclusion is not synonymous with Mainstream. It means included in society, in society's provision, inclusion for opportunity and access. It does not indicate a particular building or style of education.

Too often the term is abused to force a child with SEN into the cheapest possible placement or to deny them 1:1 help.

'Does inclusion put an unrealistic burden of work on mainstream teachers who are expected to be experts in a wide range of SEN?'

It might do. If they are. But they are not.

Having said that, if you do right by your children with SEN, you do right by all of your children. Use evidence-based strategies for teaching not currently used due to education being pulled around continuously on the basis of political whim.

It's also probably worth pointing out that in Scotland the term is Additional Support Needs, which covers everything and may be temporary.

So if your child has a broken leg and struggles moving around in school for a couple of months - that's an additional support need
If they lose a parent or sibling, or they're a LAC - that's an additional support need
If they have SN or SEN - also an additional support need

It's far, far from a perfect system in practice, but it makes sense to me in that there's no top trumps. All needs are equally important.

This would also help the OP because at any one time around 50% of the class would be being bussed out to SS

'2 hours a week of life skills and far less Physics than a mainstream secondary'

In July my son's special school taught him to cross the road in year 2. A session every week. He was at reception level at maths.

That is one of the reason I pulled him out. I am his parent and am more than capable of teaching him to cross the road without wasting his education time on it.

Turns out I am also more than capable of teaching him maths as since September he as become fluent in the new/harder Year 3 maths curriculum.

'Inclusion is a wonderful ideal for those who want it.'

Are you implying that someone my prefer NOT to have it?

I should have thought it was obvious from what I said next that I was speaking in the specific context of schools - that being what this thread is about.

But feel free to quote me out of context if that's what floats your boat.

My Dd's school is 6.5 miles away, this is the nearest school.

She is in a mixed class, 12 reception (including Dd) and 5 year 1.

There are two class teachers, job share 2.5 days each per week, which works really well, plus two dedicated class t.a's and another t.a for read, write , inc. so they are often in groups of 4:1.

Dd could read and write before starting school, but the massive improvement she has made is, in my opinion, largely down to the small class sizes/ratio of pupils to staff.

If a class already had 30 children, no way would I push for it to made larger.

In the specific context of schools, inclusion is not synonymous with mainstream. You can be included in mainstream or not. You can be included in a special school, or not.

Again, inclusion does not MEAN mainstream.

The OP is talking out of her arse.

zzzzz Have you seen this?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_live_events/2257039-Join-us-for-a-live-webchat-with-Professor-Dorothy-Bishop-Tuesday-16-December-1-2pm?msgid=51243665#51243665

YABbonkers 5 miles is nothing. Was that a typo?

I do think that if a child cannot cope it is necessarily due to poor support there is a point at which a school does not have the resources and therefore alternative education needs to be considered. Yes I think the word impinged does need defining, I believe that too often other children do not make the progress thay could do as a propritiaate amount of time is spent dealing with one or two in a class