To think that a class limit of 30 is overly restrictive For infants

[ReallyTired]

My parents have new neighbours and they have a six year old boy who is currently being forced to travel 5 miles to primary. The lea is providing transport, but there are four primaries in walking distance. The sheer distance makes hard for the little boy to socialise with classmates. His parents are hoping to get a place in a local school in year 3.

I feel that one of the primaries could go over 30 children in a class with the children melting. Use of an extra ta could help with the logistics of 31 children. Why are year 2 children so much more fragile than year 3 children?

High performing countries like Singapore often have more than 30 in a class.

"The moment it was mentioned that children with SEN should be bussed to another school (segregation), this thread should have gone poof. It would have if the OP had said "all black children should be bussed to another school." This is no different. "

I don't think it's quite the same thing. There is no educational reason for children to be educated separately on the grounds of race. There can sometimes be educational reasons for children to be educated separately on the grounds of ability--that's why some parents of children with SEN, if the SEN is very significant, may actively prefer to use a special school rather than mainstream.

I don't necessarily agree with the person in question you are talking about (because apart from anything I'm not sure which poster you are referring to), but discussing the boundaries of where SEN may require specialist education is not the same as proposing that children should be segregated on the grounds of race, and I think it's pretty stupid to even suggest that it's the same thing!

5 miles is too far?

Let's hope he gets a job very close to home when he's older and everyone panders to his every need!

PAN is set the way it is for good reasons, if you don't like the current PAN's for your local schools become a governor and work on changing it. ITYF you won't like the answers you're going to get though.

AIBU?
YA completely BU
Buuuuuuuttttttttttttttttttttttt, agreeeeeee with meeeeeeee!

FFSTiggaxx

It is segregation if it is not the parents choice. I pulled my son out of mainstream because of his sensory issues not his difference in academic ability which can usually be catered for.

It is segregation if it is done to appease the parents of nonSN kids rather than because it is the only way to meet the needs of SN kids...

Even if it is possible to discuss SEN in general terms, discussing the boundaries of where children may require specialist education is not terribly useful in the context of thinking that it will allow class sizes to be bigger and therefore enable a particular child to go to a particular school.

Leaving disablism aside, it just doesn't make any practical sense.

Children in large classes do not receive the same quality of education that children in small classes will obtain. Children in a class of 30 receive a sub par education, no matter how many TAs are assigned.

I teach in an independent school with small classes. I often work on lesson plans (individualizing them for each student in a class, in some cases) for hours in the evening after school. I know each of my students quite well, and I can readily recall the work of each student; I know the individual learning styles and needs of everyone I teach in a way that would not be possible if my class sizes were doubled or tripled.

If my classes were large, it would not be possible to tailor lessons so specifically to best meet the needs of each student, nor would it be possible to read/comment upon student compositions/work in the careful, thorough way I am able to do for my small classes. I would still put in the same time, but the result would be much different (unless I stopped sleeping).

I communicate regularly with the parents of each of my students as well, and there is no way this would be possible if my class sizes were doubled.

My son attends a weekly group in his school for children with additional support needs - the rest of the time he is in his class, with a plan in place and a bit of TA time allocated. He's finally starting to socialise well - but clearly he should be moved out to a specialist unit, after all he might be taking up a valuable mainstream place??

Oh, and I do have a some SEN students in my classes. It is easy to accommodate them with the care and thoroughness they deserve; it would not be possible if the class size was doubled or tripled.

The school followed a curriculum more appriopiate to the children needs. (ie. 2 hours a week of life skills and far less Physics than a mainstream secondary.

I think that for the majority of children with SEN in mainstream schools that would be as much use as a chocolate teapot.

Great, yeah. Teachers aren't overloaded enough as it is, give them another couple of kids per class- they'll be fine . Could you focus on 31 children at one time OP? No, thought not. 30 is too many as it is, classes need to be DECREASED not increased. Should be 20 maximum IMO.

So the essence of the OP is:

My parents' neighbours' child shouldn't have to go to a school 5 miles away. It's really unfair. The LEA should fix this by letting him go to his local school and making several other children travel miles to a non-local school instead?

What if the boy turned out to be dyslexic? Would it still be unfair to make him travel miles to a non-local school?

Why do you think it is only one child that is having to travel 5 miles, OP? It could well be a large number. Why would you parent's neighbour's child be the 31st in class? They may not even be first on the waiting list.

In our catchment 10 children didn't get their catchment school, or any of the others locally in my son's year. In the year after it was 20 children. Are you saying the class size should be raised to 50 to accomodate the catchment children who couldn't get a place? Where do you put the line on "too many" in a class?

On the SEN front - my DD has a SN - she is much better doing subjects like Physics than things like Life Skills - she will probably go to University and may even be a better one than a lot of MN children.

In the bad old days, I would have either fought her diagnosis, or she would have been shipped off to a special school and forced to do "lesser" qualifications" (and I have friends who were in that situation).

I spent a lot of primary in very big classes. Lots of needs weren't picked up. I spent a lot of time educating myself. And that school would never have passed an OFSTED inspection nowadays.

I didn't agree with your first post 30 is already plenty never mind adding to them.
You following posts have added nothing. I have also worked in a Special school and yes sometimes children thrive far better there or part time in MS school however we are going back to the dark ages ..IF you have any SEN then ship them out. THey may need additional support and hopefully the children in the class of a child with SEN will grow up with more compassion for people who have additional needs.

I am not sure where your concern lies. IF you want all children with SEN's out the classroom so children can learn without any additional needs to cope with but equally you want huge class sizes.

5 miles in a taxi for a 6 year old seems no hardship..How is this 6 year old suffering. Parents can put child down on waiting list for all 4 schools. Most 6 year old socialising is parties..IF he is not getting invites this is not due to distnace

I am sure my ds's would love to ONLY have travel 5 miles to their respective schools. ds2 has a journey of 30 miles and ds1 a journey of 40 miles. But obviously this is OK because they have SEN and there is no local school willing to take and educate them. The irony of this is that a lot of their difficulties would be solved simply by having a small class size.....

My son has complex disabilities. Yes he needs help with life skills in order to be an independent adult but we are working on this outside school.

In school he needs academic teaching. FWIW he has an A* at GCSE in physics, is currently doing A level and may well study it at university.
All disabilities are different as are all children with disabilities. Provision has to be based on their needs. The impact of the presence of children with disabilities on class sizes is completely irrelevant.

I've just checked, and we travel 4.6 miles to school. I was properly chuffed that DS1 got a place as it's a great school, and our other choice would have been even further.

I'm failing to see why this particular family's situation is so dire. They moved areas after reception - that is always going to be a gamble, as popular schools fill their reception places, and people coming to the area are then reliant on children leaving the school. If the family have moved close to the school, then he is likely to have leap-frogged over longer-standing residents on the waiting list. If they're not particularly close to the school, then they would have been stuck behind other local children on the waiting list anyway. Transport has been provided by the LEA.

The gripe seems to be simply 'He hasn't been instantly provided with a special place at a school that was already full before the family moved into the area.'

Many families are in far worse situations, with all local schools so over-subscribed that they didn't get a place at all, or with a place at a school just too close for transport to be offered, but inaccessible by public transport, or with siblings in two different schools, or no place because the LEA screwed up its application process and won't rectify it, or living 10 feet from an outstanding school that they can't get into because there are 30 out-of-area siblings ahead of them, or with a faith school 100 yards away that they can't get into because they're not religious.

I,m very happy with my sons special school he will flourish there what I am not happy about is how he was not included in mainstream nursery attached to a mainstream school he was.not allowed to take part in his nativity last year as he is non verbal and that is just one example of non inclusion not all.children with additional needs are as complex as my son of course but I know other parents with children with varying special.additional needs who feel there children are not included .

You're so predictable, ReallyTired.

Where do you draw the line at which children have sufficient SEN to warrant that specialist setting?

DS1 has moved out of mainstream, as it turned out to be absolutely not right for him. He wasn't the only child in his mainstream class with a diagnosis of some sort, though. Should those children be segregated, too? Because actually, they do fine in that mainstream classroom 99% of the time, despite their difficulties.

DS2 is only just reading, can't write and has very limited speech and obvious learning disabilities. Mainstream, right now, with good support, is absolutely the right place for him, though. He has his own curriculum, but spends some time working alongside his age peers and is inspired to emulate them and joins in where he can. He's experiencing inclusion and is forming relationships with the children he sees at the shops, in the park etc, which he wouldn't if he was bussed 10 miles away. People in our community know him for who he is rather than that strange child who bounces, shrieks and shouts a lot. That is why inclusion is important for children who are able to be included.

It so happens that DS1 takes a taxi for a 45 mile journey to his specialist setting, every morning. I'd be furious if that school didn't consider physics to be important. DS1 is in year 6 and learning level 6 maths. Just goes to show how utterly ignorant you are of what "SEN" means, Really. It's not a eupemism for "thick" or "naughty".

I think it depends where you live - 5 miles in the country is completely different to 5 miles in a large city. 5 miles where we live would mean 90 minutes on a bus, 20 minutes on the tube once you were on it and goodness knows how long by car. However I think that 5 miles for a child with SEN would probably be unbearable for a child in reception unless it was an easy car journey.

SEN is not a eupemism for "thick" or "naughty"

Luckily this child is provided with a taxi.

Sadly as soon as I saw the thread title I could accurately predict who the OP was. She really seems to have it in for teachers and has a history of goady threads.
I'm disappointed MNHQ has not seen fit to comment on the disablist opinions voiced by the OP too.

Sadly as soon as I saw the thread title I could accurately predict who the OP was. She really seems to have it in for teachers and has a history of goady threads

You missed out dull and repetitive threads...