To think that a class limit of 30 is overly restrictive For infants

[ReallyTired]

My parents have new neighbours and they have a six year old boy who is currently being forced to travel 5 miles to primary. The lea is providing transport, but there are four primaries in walking distance. The sheer distance makes hard for the little boy to socialise with classmates. His parents are hoping to get a place in a local school in year 3.

I feel that one of the primaries could go over 30 children in a class with the children melting. Use of an extra ta could help with the logistics of 31 children. Why are year 2 children so much more fragile than year 3 children?

High performing countries like Singapore often have more than 30 in a class.

No to mention the physical size of the classroom. 30 is just about manageable (5 lots of 2 tables, each with 6 children) but often you can't walk in between the tables very well!

With juniors, the furniture is bigger plus you need 3 tables to seat 6. But in the infants in addition to tables you need a book corner, a writing area, a home corner, toy storage, a carpet to sit or play on, an art area. By lower juniors you tend to just need a carpet area and book corner (art can be done at the desks, and the children don't play during class time) by upper juniors you don't even need those.

"In the past primary schools had much larger classes but no Sen children.

Really? None at all? Are you aware of what SEN actually is? I think you need to educate yourself a bit on this issue. Perhaps then you won't be spouting such utter nonsense."

Actually the OP is correct. I went to primary school in the 1960s. Provision for children with SEN in main stream education was non existent so these children went to special schools. My class had 44 pupils.

Where's "here" Krytes42?

Duplo, don't pay attention to that, many children with ASD attend MS schools, and depending on the level of need, the school may get extra support to hire an additional assistant to support her learning.

Not reading every post but I got to 'teachers don't like large class sizes as it's more work'. Well that may be so but do you really think that class teachers have ANY say in that kind of decision?

It is an LEA/management decision, it's irrelevant how teachers feel about it.

Actually the OP is NOT correct. Go educate yourself on what SEN is, before you sit there saying that there were no children with SEN in main stream education years ago.

Unbelievable.

And excuse me, bussing children with SEN elsewhere is a "nice idea"???

So much for "every child matters" eh? This is just vile.

Of course there were SEN children in mainstream education years ago.
In my opinion 30 is too many and they certainly should not go over that, even by one.

There weren't any with obvious SEN in my class as far as I can remember, but I know that we have come a long way since then. I do know that we are more inclusive these days than 50 years ago.

OP: if it concerns you so much why don't you pay for your neighbours child to attend a private school nearer to home? Or is it just easier to accuse teachers of being lazy and blame sen children of being 'the problem'?

Just because you didn't know who they were, that doesn't mean there weren't children with SEN there. You cannot just look at a child and know they have SEN... they don't wear LABELS with it on, FFS.

For the love of God, EDUCATE yourself. Here... read...

www.mumsnet.com/campaigns/this-is-my-child

Travelling 5 miles to school is hardly worth fussing about, my DS has travelled over 10 miles to school on a LA bus since he was 5 and so have 90% of his classmates.

The limit of 30 was set with very good reason after lots of research and data analysis. IMO it's still on the high side but they have to be realistic regarding cost. I would be livid if my DD's school started bending the rules to start cramming other children into her class, because little johnny can't be expected to travel to another school only 5 miles away.

I am over 60yrs. We certainly had SEN children, the difference was they were not diagnosed and they didn't get special help. We have at least come on a lot from those days. OP certainly wouldn't want the class over 30 if her DC had a place.

Ds has lived in this community all his life. Stillhas to travel 30 miles to school.

30 is already too many IMO. Sorry for the little boy but the line has to be drawn somewhere. Sure if it was my little boy I'd want him squeezed in too though...

OP, even in a class with no SEN children the typical range of ability is huge. 30 is already too many. In Scotland the limit is 25.

And I should have said significant SEN. A class with no SEN children would be very unusual.

I went to school in the 70s and I do agree that there wouldn't have been any/many children actually diagnosed with sen. My daughter has dyslexia, dyspraxia and dyscalculia and back then she would probably have been labelled "stupid and clumsy" and stuck in the "remedial" class. Written off basically.

I agree that 30 is already a huge class.

Op- I can see why the rules are hard on this boy and that for him, the disadvantage of being in a bigger class would be outweighed by the advantage of being able to walk to school and have local friends, however, for the 30 other children already in the class their education experience would be damaged with no benefit to them. I would complain if I was one of the 30 other

the range of children with SEN is huge, I think there is a point at which children with additional needs cannot be accommodated within a mainstream class and where their needs impinge on others, it's where the line is drawn that is the issue. Should it be moved?

Clearly your area needs another infant school, Op.

Do you work for Government or LA or something? Are you sounding out reactions to scrapping infant class size restrictions?
I do hope that's not being proposed somewhere - they'll meet a lot of resistance if it is.

Do you people hear yourselves?? "A point where their needs impinge on others" ?? *it's where the line is drawn that is the issue... should it be moved?"

You are, of course, aware that these children have EVERY RIGHT to be educated in MS schools, right?

www.mumsnet.com/campaigns/this-is-my-child

I do have a child who goes to a special school I found when he was in nursery in a mainstream school they were not willing to be inclusive and they really pushed for a special school its actually worked out far better his school is great just eight to a class with one teacher and two ta ,s he does have to travel however he gets transport.

All children with sen have a right to mainstream education. That is the law. My son attends special school because I decided that is better for him.

Yet another thread where the Op moans about schools. How original!

I have one child with disabilities in a SS, and one child in MS with SEN. Frankly, it took over a year of fighting tooth and nail to get the placement in the SS and I had a 2 hour long meeting yesterday at the MS school because they were not supporting dc2 at all, and it's been a massive struggle just getting help for him at all.

Those of you advocating shipping the children with SEN to a special school... just so you're aware.... you know you're being unbelievably offensive and disablist, right? And that these children have every right to be educated in MS schools? And that comments stating that their needs "impinge on others" are vile beyond belief, right?

Just checking.