To think that a class limit of 30 is overly restrictive For infants

[ReallyTired]

My parents have new neighbours and they have a six year old boy who is currently being forced to travel 5 miles to primary. The lea is providing transport, but there are four primaries in walking distance. The sheer distance makes hard for the little boy to socialise with classmates. His parents are hoping to get a place in a local school in year 3.

I feel that one of the primaries could go over 30 children in a class with the children melting. Use of an extra ta could help with the logistics of 31 children. Why are year 2 children so much more fragile than year 3 children?

High performing countries like Singapore often have more than 30 in a class.

Sometimes when children don't get into several of their nearest primaries and have to travel miles, it's because they had a particular school they wanted and they only put that one school on the form, thinking this will lessen their chance of getting any other school. Not realising that if they don't get into their top/only choice they will then be assigned to any school that is under subscribed, which might be miles away.

There are only a handful of children per LA who currently cannot be accommodated in MS Lambie. IMO - and as the parent of a child with SN - that bar is set too high. IMO there are a lot of children currently in mainstream who would do better in a different kind of setting. However, that kind of setting - tiny classes, specialised support, as much time spent on social skills as classwork - would be incredibly expensive so it just doesn't happen.

NOTE: this is a world away from the 'shipping out' the OP refers too - I just think in too many places there's no real appetite for inclusion, and inclusions become a sort of methodology that doesn't take into account the needs of every child. If we started from 'what's best for this child' and had a range of options other than SS or MS then we'd do much, much better for our children.

Or we reduce class sizes for everyone, give MS teachers a fuckload more training and make inclusion work. Either way would be better.

Agreed lonny!

Movement between towns and villages was revolutionised by the invention of the bicycle. And that was quite some number of years ago.

I don't think you've got any point to make. Five miles is nothing.

Polter Goose, I'm developing quite a crush! Your points hit the nail on the head exactly.

My son is due to start reception in September - the idea that he should be deprived of a mainstream education because of his disability to enable schools to squeeze ever more children into a class gives me utter rage. OP - is this really what you mean? If so, please have the guts to actually say so...

I'm talking about the situation where a parent wants their child to be in mainstream and the school/LA are saying the child's needs cannot possibly be met in mainstream (was my situation till recently as all the alternatives were worse). What they mean is they cannot be met without spending a lot of money on things like 2:1 support, specialist staff, specialist therapies, building on rooms etc.

I'm slightly aghast at the suggestion that children with additional needs should be moved out to make room for other children, so that they can have the social benefits of being near their friends.

I too am aghast by that. Children with sen are more likely to have difficulty travelling and socialising and probably need that school place more than the able bodied neuro typical child who has no learning difficulties. There is very good reason why school over subscription criteria usually has exceptional social and medical need high on the priority list.
I have a child with severe and complex needs who attends a special school, he has never been in mainstream and I genuinely feel that his school is the best available place to meet his needs. However, if his needs had been less complex and he could have been adequately accommodated in a mainstream setting then he should have been able to have a place in the nearest suitable school. I would have been furious if the LA had decided that all the children with mild and moderate needs should be kicked out to make space for healthy little johnny whose mummy doesn't want him to take a publicly funded taxi to school.

Inclusion is a wonderful ideal for those who want it. There will always be some parents who prefer a specialised school for children with particular needs and that should also be open to them. My niece thrived in a boarding school designed for children at the far end of the autism spectrum. Even with a lot of support in mainstream she just couldn't cope.

She transferred to college at sixteen when she was much more able to cope, after the work done with her at her previous school.

LAs still try to do inclusion on the cheap. There are children whose needs or behaviour "demand" a minimum of 1 to 1 support for the safety of themselves and the other children but it's very hard to persuade LAs to provide it. If children with additional needs are to attend mainstream school (which I believe should be an option) then proper funding has to be provided or they will struggle - and their teachers will struggle - and the other children will struggle. And they will be excluded.

Yes, the quiet child with mild dyslexia who doesn't like to make a fuss or draw attention could find it more challenging to cope in a large class than the exuberant, sociable child with CP, and leaving aside their specific needs, one of them could be exceptionally gifted academically and one of them could be so, so, but you wouldn't know just by looking at their SEN.

Moreover, many children aren't identified as having an SEN till they are already in the school system. At 4 they would just be part of the general application process. I wouldn't be surprised if this applies to most children with an identified SEN in main stream schools

Five miles quite a lot to expect a six year old to cycle. My five year old can't ride a bike yet and I imagine that a lot of six year olds can't ride a bike either. Thankfully not even the LEA is that stupid and they do provide the little boy with a taxi.

Why has the workload of teachers increased when class sizes have decreased and there are more TAs? In the past teachers had large classes, no TA and no PPA time. Does inclusion put an unrealistic burden of work on mainstream teachers who are expected to be experts in a wide range of SEN? We still have a stubbornly high rate of illiteracy in the UK inspite of more resources.

17% of school leavers functionally illerate

How do you make the workload of teachers more managable? Having more adults in the classroom has not made teachers' lives easier.

"However, that kind of setting - tiny classes, specialised support, as much time spent on social skills as classwork - would be incredibly expensive so it just doesn't happen. "

I used work in a special school which was exactly like this. The school still exists but the number of places have been cut dramatically.The teachers had post graduate qualifications in various areas of special needs. The school followed a curriculum more appriopiate to the children needs. (ie. 2 hours a week of life skills and far less Physics than a mainstream secondary.) The school employed their own speech and language therapist and occupational therapist. All this was very expensive. However most of the school leavers could read and were employable.

Actually I think that children with special needs should be educated in a specialist unit attached to a mainstream school rather than a seperate special school. However that is another thread.

Hang on. He gets a taxi to a school5 miles away?

No, I can't see the problem with that.

We live outside town, maybe two miles from the school, in the middle of nowhere. DS is 3. No one has been to each others' houses for playdates yet, they may run around the park for half an hour together afterwards or something.

Cycling 5/6 miles is nuts, but if they supply a taxi... yeah, I don't get it.

See, if you just used the words 'some' and 'where appropriate' and 'if that was right for them' I'd have no problem with your final sentence.

It's the 'should' that upsets people. My child has a right to be in MS, just like anyone else's. His needs should be met, just like anyone else's. Oh and he's been able to read since he was 5 - I want a little more for him than that as a target for leaving school.

Sorry, I misread the OP - I thought this was reception entry - I think that in many places it is par for the course to have to wait for a place if you aren't entering at the normal admissions years.

Some schools are popular and have waiting lists every year - whatever size the class and however many SEN children you removed, you would still have to join the queue. As others have said, 5 miles is really not that big a deal. Plenty of children travel further.

Why has the workload of teachers increased when class sizes have decreased and there are more TAs?

Because a lot more is expected of teachers now - it used to be our job to teach children to read, write and add up. But more and more stuff is now expected to be taught in schools. A lot of it used to be the job of the parents.

I never did cooking in school - my mother taught me. I learned to swim at the local baths - no swimming in school. I didn't need lessons in social skills at school, my parents taught me by example. I learned about citizenship from them as well.

Before I started school my parents taught me to count, write my name, the alphabet, how to sit still and listen, dress and undress myself and use a knife and fork properly.

Go into any reception class today and see how many children are no longer taught these basic skills before starting school.

Interesting how the OP has a huge problem with an NT child going 5 miles to school in a taxi, but it's perfectly fine to ship a child with SN/SEN in a taxi off to another school.

The school followed a curriculum more appriopiate to the children needs. (ie. 2 hours a week of life skills and far less Physics than a mainstream secondary.)

You are aware that just because a child has SEN or SNs, that doesn't mean they need their curriculum "dumbed down" right? My ds1 is disabled with SNs and he was top of the class in MS, and that was with him barely being in class due to not coping with the number of people in there (among other things). Rather offensive that you are saying it's "appropriate" for a child with SN/SEN to have "far less Physics than a mainstream", as if you think all children with SN/SEN are academically unable to handle it.

Actually I think that children with special needs should be educated in a specialist unit attached to a mainstream school rather than a seperate special school. However that is another thread.

Yes, another thread. Perhaps you could entitle it "Let me show my disablist views to all of MN" and that way we could just all glory in it. All children are different, even those with SNs. The only children that should be educated in a specialist unit are those that have specific needs to be in a specialist unit. NOT ALL CHILDREN WITH SPECIAL NEEDS OR SEN NEED TO BE IN A SPECIALIST SCHOOL OR UNIT.

Please educate yourself, hopefully it will change your woefully biased views.
www.mumsnet.com/campaigns/this-is-my-child

Polter is spot on.
Your views are ridiculous at best, disablist at worst.
Are you lumping in all children on the sen register?
Or are those like my son who had no behavioural difficulties ok?

My DF was in primary school in the 50's and was written off as a naughty and stupid child, when we now know he actually had Aspergers. My DS has Aspergers, a statement and is supported in MS by a support worker.

To say there were no kids with SN "back in the days" is ignorant - they were just written off.

Ridiculous and ignorant to suggest that kids with SN should be sent to different schools to give the NT kids extra places.

Also, OP I should expect that there are a lot of children in your area who are at schools further away due to the 30 rule. Let in one and you set a precedent for others and where do you stop.

reallytired I think you need to go and get some sleep and wake up in a mood where you realise how offensive your posts are.
If you are so flipping bothered about this boy getting a taxi then why don't you offer to home educate him rather than spouting offensive nonsense about children with SEN and their entitlement to an education in a mainstream setting.

This thread makes me sad :-(

Op, if all local schools are full, it seems likely that other children are also travelling to a school further away. So when do they draw the line, or do they just keep squeezing them in?

My daughter attends a school less than a mile away, but does not socialise with anyone from her class outside of school, yet plays with local children everyday - I personally think that is great, broadens her social circle, it doesn't restrict it!

Mind you, my daughter is diagnosed with ADHD, so I guess really she shouldn't be attending that school anyway! Thankfully her class is not 'full', there are 25 children in it, so perhaps you can 'allow that'?

I would like to know where MNHQ is. This is openly disablist and there has been no response from HQ. I'm truly disappointed. There is no reason that we as parents should have to try to "educate" and "open discussion" with people that are spouting such disablist rubbish.

The moment it was mentioned that children with SEN should be bussed to another school (segregation), this thread should have gone poof. It would have if the OP had said "all black children should be bussed to another school." This is no different.

Poor form!

Which children should be in the specialist unit? The ones who are hard of hearing and can't cope in an environment with too many auditory challenges but are perfectly able to cope otherwise? The ones with mild dyslexia who need extra help? The child with sensory processing difficulties/ASD who is fine with just a little help in a calm, ordered, structured environment but can't cope when things become chaotic? The child in a wheelchair who needs to be in a building with enough space for wheelchair access (not too many desks squeezed into the classroom), but otherwise is no different to any other child in the class?

And where are all these large classes going to go? You are going to need more toilets, a bigger assembly hall, more playground space, but then you if you also have a specialist unit that takes up space too...

The majority view on this thread is not disablist. No need for it to be deleted. It stifles discussion of the issues and most people are contributing positively.