To think that a class limit of 30 is overly restrictive For infants

[ReallyTired]

My parents have new neighbours and they have a six year old boy who is currently being forced to travel 5 miles to primary. The lea is providing transport, but there are four primaries in walking distance. The sheer distance makes hard for the little boy to socialise with classmates. His parents are hoping to get a place in a local school in year 3.

I feel that one of the primaries could go over 30 children in a class with the children melting. Use of an extra ta could help with the logistics of 31 children. Why are year 2 children so much more fragile than year 3 children?

High performing countries like Singapore often have more than 30 in a class.

What "harm" is he actually suffering op?

Simply put, infants is less about learning the "stuff" and more about learning how to learn. Once these skills are laid down and starting to cement, fewer of the students will require individual attention and it is more reasonable to have larger class groups. As well, "independent group" work begins in earnest in Y3, so students can better support each other.

However, since you know everything about stuffing more students in infants classrooms and shunting those with learning challenges into institutional settings, why don't you just open a private school, stick 40 6 year olds in a classroom and get rich?

why don't you just open a private school, stick 40 6 year olds in a classroom and get rich?

Assuming she'd ever be able to find a decent teacher willing to work in such an environment!

Frankly, the ability of the boy to socialise with those in his class says more about his parents and far less about the distance to his school - and what makes him more worthy of an oversubscribed place in a local school than any other child who has to travel?

Midnite OP knows it all - clearly she can teach, too... because the teachers who don't want to teach more than 30 Y1s are just lazy, donchaknow...

I can tell you that there are 30 children in my dc2's class. Why? Because every time I complain that they are not supporting his SEN, their first comment is "well, there are 30 children in the class...."

Not ideal, tbh. Less would be better.

But don't you know, Alice , that your DC is one of the one who should be shipped out so the OP's parents' new neighbours' child can have a spot...

A six year old here would never be in a class of more than 18 or so. Are you talking about a class of 30 young children with one teacher? That's already insane. The poor teachers.

There is a national teacher shortage. No - one wants to be a teacher. Onl yesterday the Tory stooge Wilshaw was on R4 proclaiming how the teachers he has are all shite. He can't make the connection that negative publicity combined with organisational bullying via OFSTED (not to mention a ridiculous target driven culture and an enormous workload) kinda puts people off.
BUT children continue to be born, and have a right to be educated. With far fewer teachers this leads to over full classes. The whole system is at breaking point.

LOLing at the people who seem to think that SEN and behavioural issues don't exist in Singapore. Er, really?

That said, although it is true that in international comparisons there is no reliable correlation between class size and performance, that tends to be true only for children over the age of 8. For younger kids, smaller classes do tend to be (somewhat) better.

For older kids, yes, we are probably a bit too fixated on class sizes in this country.

My top set Y9 (not primary, but still relevant, I think) has 36 in it. 10 are more able, 5 are on the SEN register, 7 are Pupil Premium students. Allowing 5 mins per book, marking the books takes fekin 2 hours. Before you even start prepping the lessons. I'm just glad I don't have to listen to them read. God knows how I'd manage.

Larger classes are just fine OP. Don't you worry.

There has to be a limit. You can't just say 'ah go on. One more won't make a difference'!! You have to have a cut off somewhere. It's the same with the school starting age. Once you do it for one the floodgates open.

I teach in foundation stage and one extra child does make a difference. Reception classes should really be below 25. With smaller classes are grades are generally better which proves class size does effect children.

CallMe Oh goodness, thanks for pointing that out. I missed that particular gem. Goodness, I had no idea the OP was against children like my 5yo ds2 with SEN attending MS instead of being shipped out to a SS... you know, so the "normal folk" don't have to deal with him and he's not taking up too much of the teacher's time in that class of 30.

Would it raise general achievement to provide more special school/ unit places for children who for whatever reason cannot cope in a class of 30?

Oh, of course. Let's just ship out those with SEN/SN. It's not like they matter, right? OP, you are aware just how offensive you're being, don't you, by implying that those children have no right to be in a MS classroom?

In the past primary schools had much larger classes but no Sen children.

Really? None at all? Are you aware of what SEN actually is? I think you need to educate yourself a bit on this issue. Perhaps then you won't be spouting such utter nonsense.

Inclusion is hard for teachers to do well in a class of 30.

A smaller class size is ideal for all ages, regardless of inclusion issues. And just because it's difficult doesn't mean they don't have to do it.

Children in special schools frequently have to travel much futher than 5 miles to school. And why should those who are fine in mainstream in a reasonably sized class have to move so a few children without sen don't have to travel 5 miles?

My DS has medical needs which means he takes up extra teacher/Ta time to be cared for I wonder if he would be allowed to stay in a mainstream class under the OPs plans?

30 children is too many in a class but certainly no class should go over 30. Unless there is really no alternative then they shouldn't go over 30 in KS2 either IMO.

It's all well and good the op assuming that an extra Ta will help with the extra students (who is funding these extra tas by the way?) but they don't do the planning or most of the marking or the assessments and everything else involved. They can't do most of the teaching either!

The original post was not about SEN, it was about class size.

But the op made it about SEN with her idea that it was due to children with SEN that such 'small' classes are needed and that without them it would be fine!

This thread makes me so upset. My DD has ASD and is due to start at a mainstream school next year. Knowing that some people could possibly think so should go to a special school just so the class sizes could be bigger breaks my heart. My DD faces enough obstacles with her education as it is why do people make it so much harder ?

How would they fund the extra TA? Even if that one child has a statement (& they are like Hen's teeth) the school still has to fund the first £6k.

YABU.

25 is the "right" size for an infant class. 30 is too many a lot of the time.

My ds is in a sn unit within a ms infants. The children in the unit spend time in the ms classrooms with their TAs. The reception class size is 40 - 2 teachers and 2 TAs (plus 1-1s) in a split classroom. - it is chaos. At present ds can't cope with going into the ms classroom at all as it is too noisy and manic.

larger class size is not the way to go.

It is really offensive to suggest that all children with sen or complex health needs should be in special schools. It is also pretty ignorant to think that there are special schools catering for a variety of disabilities, round every corner. The 2 nearest ss to us are focused on children with ASD, the nearest one that would possibly take ds is 35 miles away.

Spare a thought for any children who didn't get in to any of the four schools even though they have lived in the community all their lives. Why shouldn't the class sizes have increased for them? It's an ongoing problem.

30 is too big.

Look at the private sector - they have smaller.class sizes and I suspect that's one reason why they do better.

The OP sounds very much like "the rules disadvantage me me me so must be wrong"

A class of 30 is not "more work for the teachers" it is just even less attention to the individual needs of the children.

In the case of my child, a smaller class meant that the teacher knew his strengths and his weaknesses, and was able to adjust the reading and revising material to cater for his being advanced in reading, maths and science but behind in letter formation.

In a class of 32 the teacher couldn't even spell his name.

"Would it raise general achievement to provide more special school/ unit places for children who for whatever reason cannot cope in a class of 30?"

I'm just wondering how you would afford this, and where you would put them?

It is a nice solution, but would leave parents with greater distances than the ones your new neighbours face. Also, how would you suggest children as young as 3 are reliably assessed in time for reception placement?

The limit needs to be kept in place.

It's not just about coping, but about thriving. The strict limit of 30 means that in practice (allowing for excepted pupils) classes are rarely over 32. And a lot probably will be, during the demographic bulge.