to feel cheated that you can't actually have it all?

[ChocolateOrangeInASantaHat]

Many moons ago I was educated in a fantastically positive school, where as females we were taught that we could achieve anything a male could achieve and that if we worked hard enough and planned well enough, we could 'have it all' in life.

So now, with my collection of letters after my name, respectable job, 2 usually well-behaved children, lovely husband and a multitude of lists to keep life running smoothly, I'm slowly realising that it doesn't matter how hard I work or how meticulously I plan, unless I steal a bloody tardis I still can't have it all.

Feeling particularly bitter as was up all night with poorly child, who I then left with a relative to not miss work today (=feeling like rubbish mother) and then as I'd had no sleep I was not very productive at work (=also feeling like rubbish employee). Since others at my level are generally male and tend to have stay at home wives, this kind of feeling inadequate at both home and work doesn't tend to occur for them.

Honestly feeling like I should advise daughter to either:
a) marry rich man, get good prenup and focus on children/household or
b) be career driven and marry man who is happy to stay at home and focus on children/household.

AIBU to feel cheated that I can't 'have it all'? (NB in case lost in my sleep-deprivedness this is a --partially- tongue-in-cheek AIBU)

My dh earns twice what I do because I work in the third sector. But we consider my work and career as just as important as his and cut our cloth accordingly. If I worked less and he more we could increase our overall income but that's not the most important thing to us. Obviously I'm talking about two professionals here both earning over average wage.

I think I managed to "have it all". I had my family when I was young, I was a SAHM, went to Uni when the youngest was 4 and achieved those letters after my name when she was 9. DH built his business while I was at home. 11 years later I now work part time in a highly successful career and have my "hobby" business the other part of the time. DH runs our other two businesses.

'The men seem to get more and more successful at work because the stuff at home is covered.'

That happens when they marry with women who take over that role by jacking in work or going part-time. If he married a woman who has a career that doesn't involve that, then they both have to step up and divide out the work - either hire it out or do it themselves.

What was it Britt ekland said?
"What I need is a wife"
I think women have been lied to for years...we of the Cosmo generation have been sold an ideal no one can actually achieve.

I would say that you do have it all, but YABU if you expect to have all that plus sanity, balance, time for everyone and everything - and I say that as a SAHM who doesn't always feel I have those things either!

Get a good nights sleep or two, and I'm sure you'll feel better

I think it depends what "Having it all" actually means and whether you can ever be satisfied, some people aren't, no matter what they do.

To me having it all isn't career, kids, and husband because I'm sure that wouldn't make me happy.
So I do what does make me happy.
So having it all is open to interpretation anyway.

In terms of being able to do what men do, I think we are closer to equality than we ever have been. Most women now want to share the responsibility of raising children, career, domestics etc and they are finding men who agree with them.

I don't remember anybody claiming that we can have a successful, full time career and also be there with our kids 24/7. That's just not physically possible. We can have both family and career though.

Everyone is different but I don't want to be with my children all the time. I like being able to go to work as it means that it doesn't become boring doing the same thing all the time.I don't know why some people see having it all as doing it all. Why the hell would anyone want to do it all?

I like it that my daughters see DP doing as much domestic work as I do. It's good to model us both working and sharing the housework.

That said - it's hard work fir both of us. We are both exhausted all the time. And we can't afford a cleaner or whatever.

I'm not as available for my children as I would like to be.

But I like being challenged at work, the social aspects and the Christmas party. I go abit odd and neurotic at home all day. And I'm crap at housework cooking and crafty things.

I never felt guilty for leaving my children. I often put work first, because thats what paid the bills. My parents brought me up to believe I could do anything, and to always be financially independent.

I've worked hard, especially because I've been a single parent for 8 of the last 16 years. I missed a lot of school stuff because my DCs school insisted on everything being done in school hours or immediately thereafter. Parents evenings that finished at 4pm were a particular joy.

But I now own my own home, am looking to work compressed hours (which was never a possibility in my role until literally the last year), and hopefully by the time I'm 50 I should be able to largely retire, maybe do a little consultancy work on the side. So for me the hard work was worth it.

The thing is that to really properly throw yourself into some careers that maybe include a bit of travel, long hours, unexpected hours, or work socialising you don't just need a 50-50 partner you need a traditional "wife" to be fully in charge of the domestic side of life. And whilst a lot of men are willing to pull their weight in the home, there's not that many who really aspire to be a SAHD/homemaker. So I think it's a bit of a mad daydream for most women to think they want "what men have" - a lot of modern working fathers actually have much the same as working mothers - a busy life that most of the time manages to balance home and work responsibilities but has a few compromises here and there.

The men who have the really high flying careers (and are also fathers) tend to have a wife who's prepared to be a SAHM or at least fit her working hours around the kids. It's that kind of men that I think some people are envious of. The trouble is, I'm not sure all women who have children really do want that either when they think about it - those fathers don't generally have the really close relationships with their DC that most mothers want.

Thing is, you probably are doing a better job than a lot of the men. Just thinking about some of the muppets directors I am working with at the moment.

I have a job with flexible hours (I'm am academic), and DH does too so we share out childcare between ourselves (we can't afford paid childcare). It's rubbish - neither of us gets enough work done and we are both always doing everything badly, and are stressed and resentful. But it could be worse.

I do think that even if you intellectually knew beforehand that you get treated differently at work as a woman with children, it's a shock when it happens to you. I imagine it as quite like older women often say about becoming "invisible" after a certain age. My workplace is male-dominated and it's like now I have a child male colleagues (especially older men, which there are lots of) just don't speak to me any more. They don't bother chatting at lunch, they seem to think it's not worth speaking to me about anything serious any more. (It clearly doesn't help, for them, that I put baby weight on that I haven't shed yet, and that I am often so exhausted that I don't have time any more to put on loads of makeup each day.) One older colleague I have known for ten years actually thought I was an entirely different person when I came back from maternity leave and kept asking me if I was a new employee It's really palpable how differently they treat me - and apart from the baby weight and not as much eyeliner, I'm just the sane as before (at least at work....)

And that doesn't even cover how the students now treat me. I am quite literally no more or less available than I ever was, no more or less conscientious, no more or less effort goes into the teaching and marking - I just do exactly what I did before. But now students have taken to complaining to me and to my manager that I'm not "available enough to them" because I have "family responsibilities" (they know I have recently come back from maternity leave). I find this interesting (as well as bloody irritating as I do exactly what my male colleagues do, in fact a lot more in many cases, but there's been a palpable change in how the students relate to me and what they expect.

Lots of women are familiar with the Red Queen effect (where you have to run twice as hard just to be thought of as staying in the same place as the men) - and it seems to me to have got really palpably worse after having children, it's like my colleagues and students have just decided they think of me differently now I have children, no matter what I do. Where does "lean in" get you when others have made up their mind about what they think about women with children in the workplace?

AnnieLob once again I totally agree. Supermum you and your DC certainly are being shortchanged and I didn't say that this can't happen with two WOHP, just that it isn't inevitable. From what you've said I'm not sure it's the two WOHP that are the main issue for you, more your DH's basic attitude?

Anyway, what it boils down to really is sexism, isn't it? Men and women who subscribe to preset ideas of what their roles should be. It's often unconscious, but the everyday sexism that pervades life still has got to be challenged. We all need to get our heads round flexible working for parents, not just mums. We all need to stop asking mums "who's looking after the kids" when we wouldn't ask a dad the same question. We all need to stop expecting young women to plan their careers based on the possibility they might have children when we wouldn't expect the same of a young man.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be SAHP, or that it is in any way wrong for women to have regard to future plans when thinking about their career. But we need to allow people to make those choices untainted by assumptions about what they should do based on gender.

Phew, off to bed!

Postcard that sounds really tough.

Thanks mrsmalcolm! :) I feel I'm not so much "having it all" so much as "having all the worst bits of everything"

Intellectually, though, I know that I'm doing my job exactly as before and a lot better than lots of my colleagues - so it's really grating that there's this sudden general assumption that my brain fell out of my head when I had a baby; or that if I say I won't answer emails after 8pm (which I did before), that suddenly this is no longer efficiently prioritising my time but is now not being available enough because I have a child and I'm not giving enough to my job. Whereas, for my male colleagues, when their wives have children, they are somehow still always just efficiently prioritising their time

I read an article recently that showed that in my profession ( university lecturer) someone had done a study on how when teaching online courses students gave consistently much poorer ratings across the board to female rather than male teachers, even when they did exactly the same things eg. handed work back at exactly the same time - even when the "sex" of the supposed online professor was made up for the purposes of the study eg. one group was told the teacher was female and another was told male and so on. The supposed "female" teachers were marked significantly lower for giving work back on time than the "male" ones even when the time taken had been completely identical.

It would make sense that this effect would kick in even more for women after they have children. And it's hard to keep up an "I'm leaning in and having it all, yay!" idea of yourself if others in the workplace clearly think of you differently as a mother.

*Should have been clearer (long day) - meant "when I say I won't answer emails after 8pm (which I didn't before having a baby either)"

eg, pre-child, me: "students, I do not answer emails after 8pm". Everyone: "How busy and important this person is, she is good at compartmentalising her time and having work-life balance!" (hah )

After baby, me: "students, I do not answer emails after 8pm". Students: "I am not getting enough here, this person is not available enough to do her job properly because she is focusing too much on her family"

Me:

It is how you act I think. I look the same as pre babies. I rarely mention babies or children unless asked even though I returned really early. I think once people know your serious they take you serious. I will still go to anything at any time and if something is arranged I will go.

I think there are a lot of men who want to be sahds but not many professional women who will marry them. Dh has dinner ready every night, does every school drop off/pick up etc so I don't even have to think of any of that kind of thing. I still have lots of time with the children but I am never thinking have I done this or that as dh is at home doing it.

postcard, isn't the problem then that you are in a sector where a lot of women work part time and where university lecturer pay is not that high hence a good few women go part time and thus everyone thinks all women move to the mommy track when babies come? In other words you have been shafted because so many women colleagues opted into part time working. Every woman who puts her man before her and decides to be the lower earner is damaging other women. The personal is political and we cannot get away from that.

If all the women on this thread earned 2x (or the 10x I did) than their other half we would not be having these conversations. So they have either been sexistly brought up to seek third sector lower paid jobs or they have chosen to "marry up" consciously or unconsciously so a man can provide and they can look up to Mr Big Bucks (or in a few cases been discriminated against on grounds of sex).

I genuinely aged 23 with a baby was not treated differently. I took 2 weeks of annual leave to have the baby only and because I had a baby I had lots in common with clients and senior lawyers at work so it helped not hindered.

As someone said above "having it all" is a strange phrase. Women can be lawyer like I am with a lot of children earning a lot of money just as men can. That is having it all in one sense and the only sense that matters. The secret to that is not getting conned into doing part time hours.

If you are the best in the business and generate a lot of work then no one cares if you have 2 heads or no legs. I have been a mother for 30 years. I am a lawyer, not an academic but I wrote 30 law books. I don't think anyone regards the quality of my legal advice, books or talks as worse because I had five children.

My advice to younger women is always work full time, go with the money,do what men do and make sure you don't tolerate sexism at home even for a day.

I had a pretty dire childhood and spent most of it escaping by zoning out . I messed up my education big style . I left home at 18 and worked and funded my life until marriage and children . 17 years later I'm still a SAHM .Dh works ridiculously long hours , there's no family support etc - me not working was a well thought out choice .
I love being at home with my brood .
But , I'm not independent . My marriage is now crumbling and I can see separation looming . A career and an income would be a very welcome thing right now .
Life for a female is so fluid , our needs shift and change . Most males don't have to face this issue .

"they have either been sexistly brought up to seek third sector lower paid jobs"

Maybe this is true but you know what, I WIN in my job.. I was told that I could be anything I wanted to be and do anything I wanted to do and that I could make a difference in the world and should follow my passion. I did and I have, and I'm happy with my salary.

My DH was brought up by a sexist twit of a father who told him he'd only ever be measured on his wallet. He got into a corporate world he doesn't like very much, he swings from hating his job to mildly disliking it, he is never passionate about it.

Earning more money is NOT the most important thing in life. And you CAN be super successful and influential and make a difference in the world in a job that isn't in a high paid sector.

My friend has a Top Job (very top) and "has it all". She does have, however, a dh who works from home. She said that she made a conscious decision to pick a partner like this because she knew she wanted to pursue her career wholeheartedly.

Otoh I have zero back-up: no family, a dh who works long and unpredictable hours, plus I didn't plan to be so ill for so long after having ds. All this conspired to make me the much-reviled SAHM who is still lounging around with dcs at secondary school.

I think the stars have to align - or at least you have to intervene in their alignment - in order to approach having it all.

touching a nerve here. Dh and I do as close to 50% each as possible (at least where child care is concerned). But I agree to really fly in your career having a partner who does 50% just isn't enough to allow you. However neither of us would be happy with SAH although we'd both quite like a wife!

There you are Greengrow! I have to strongly disagree that having it all means earning a lot of money. It's about being able to be a mother and have a career and ultimately being independent ie a person in your own right rather than an adjunct to someone else's.

: "it's how you act.....I look the same as pre babies. I rarely mention babies or children unless asked....I will still go to anything at any time".

So women who can't or don't do those things deserve discrimination eh Alicia?