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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To be shocked at the ageism on here tonight

608 replies

drudgetrudy · 27/11/2014 23:08

AIBU to be shocked at the terms used to refer to older people tonight.
We've had "old duffers", "old biddies" "old dears with nothing better to do" and this isn't a TAAT-its been on more than one thread.

If any other group were referred to in generalised and negative terms like this people would be going nuts.
People are people and come in many varieties over all age ranges.
Seriously pissed off tonight.Angry

OP posts:
DameDiazepamTheDramaQueen · 01/12/2014 22:17

Ah yes, that old chestnut, I've had basically the same reply when I reported someone using disabilist language before. They didn't mean it Hmm

ilovesooty · 01/12/2014 22:34

I think HQ really need to realise that equality and diversity is about perception, not intent.

Devora · 01/12/2014 22:37

Hakluyt, at the risk of being simplistic I'd suggest that men as a social class devalue older women because we're not sexy or fertile - everyone knows that's what women are FOR. Where we have value, it's in mummy roles - home mummy or office mummy. And everyone takes mummy for granted, don't they?

With younger women, I guess there's a need to make hay while the sun shines - enjoying the status of youth and 'othering' older women because subconsciously they are seeing their future and they are horrified.

Ooh, one other thing I wanted to say is about the loaded baby boomer stereotype. I'm slightly fed up of younger colleagues assuming I'm loaded because of the year of my birth. I think this stereotype also makes invisible women's relative poverty and how precarious their relationship to financial security can be. My mother and grandmother both struggled with poverty and social isolation as they raised their children as single mothers; though I'm not poor like them, there's no question I have a very different lifestyle from the one if I might have had if I had pooled resources with a male breadwinner earning male wages. Add to that the huge number of women who have been bumped in poverty by marital break-up, pension arrangements etc. Remember that the gender pay gap gets wider the older you get; that older women are markedly poorer than older men; that midlife and older women have higher rates of depression, lower body confidence, the highest growing rates of obesity. They are the people who bear the brunt of caring for older and younger family, who lacked maternity rights and so often had to give up work, who tend to run our voluntary and community services.

I have no doubt that our society benefits from the work older women put in; but I don't think they value older women. We are encouraged to feel shame for daring to exist without turning men on, to apologise for the space we take up on the planet. In essence, we personify Middle England, suburbia, Damart and Lakeland and Hotter shoes and everything that is laughably dull. And I feel a bit exposed even having this rant, daring to express my anger, because I think women my age are supposed to be pleasant and undemanding and slightly apologetic. We are supposed to agree that our age is a bit of a joke; we are supposed to self-deprecate. We are supposed to read the Daily Mail and drink in all those stories about famous beauties who have dared to get older. We are supposed to consume style and beauty editorial that is all about how we can fade into a pleasant, peachy, undemanding blur. And the only rebellion allowed to us is a kind of cheeky, Beryl Cook, I shall wear purple (ooh, scary), isn't she marvellous for her age, you're as young as the man you feel end of the pier show. I'm tired of being told I don't look my age, as though that is the greatest compliment ever. I'm tired of a situation where the only admired older women are abnormally youthful or surgically altered. Why is it a source of shame to look or act 50? Why is menopause not a subject for polite company? Why do younger feminists see it as natural that I - and other women of my generation - should continue campaigning for their access to abortion, their reproductive rights, their need for quality affordable childcare, their right to walk the street unmolested and to be free of gender stereotyping at school, but have apparently no interest in campaigning on issues affecting older women?

And now I'm going to lie down in a darkened room.

DameDiazepamTheDramaQueen · 01/12/2014 22:44

I'll join you in agreement Debvora!

magimedi · 01/12/2014 22:45

Devora - I love you!

So true.

Floisme · 01/12/2014 22:48

I'd like to say a massive thank you to drudgetrudy for starting this thread and to everyone who's contributed. That includes the dissenters as I'd much rather people hung around to argue than yawned and looked for another thread.

I hadn't realised just how much the ageism on Mumsnet had been getting to me. There's been some truly awful stuff sometimes but, apart from occasionally objecting to something outrageous on Style and Beauty, I'd let most of it go. This discussion has made me realise that I'm not alone and that it is worth challenging I feel like. Once again, Flowers to all.

ArsenicSoup · 01/12/2014 22:48

Why do younger feminists see it as natural that I - and other women of my generation - should continue campaigning for their access to abortion, their reproductive rights, their need for quality affordable childcare, their right to walk the street unmolested and to be free of gender stereotyping at school, but have apparently no interest in campaigning on issues affecting older women?

Hey, don't lump us all together by age group! Smile

(and I like when When I am old, I shall wear purple - pretty subversive for its time 70s? early 80s?)

Mehitabel6 · 01/12/2014 22:49

Very true.

Mehitabel6 · 01/12/2014 22:50

My 'very true' was in reply to Devora.

ArsenicSoup · 01/12/2014 22:52
  1. It's about rejecting social expectations isn't it, in a small, suburban way?
ArsenicSoup · 01/12/2014 22:56

And it is written by a young woman looking forward, to a time when she is freer of social constraints and can live for herself. It is about feeling stifled then, in her younger years;

But now we must have clothes that keep us dry
And pay our rent and not swear in the street
And set a good example for the children.
We must have friends to dinner and read the papers.

(bit distraught on behalf of the poem Grin )

magimedi · 01/12/2014 22:56

When I am old.... was written in 1961!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I loathe it, it is indeed a nod to a silly, "Isn't she great for her age" type of rebellion.)

And it pisses me off that I spent most of the 1970's fighting for many of the womens' rights that people now take for granted but now dismiss those of us who did as 'old biddies'.

ArsenicSoup · 01/12/2014 23:01

it is indeed a nod to a silly, "Isn't she great for her age" type of rebellion.

Pfft it isn't about the older years at all, it's about the domestic oppression of a younger woman (then), if anything, and her whimiscal plans and imaginings about her future self. But rebellious imaginings, nevertheless.

But (other than the poem Wink ) and the remarks about 'younger feminists' I think Devora puts it very well.

OldLadyKnows · 01/12/2014 23:03

I've been following this thread with great interest. And after Devora's fucking fantastic post above, I think I'll have to change my name. Self-deprecating is so nail-on-head. Blush

Devora · 01/12/2014 23:09

I will back off the poem, Arsenic Grin. I accept everything you say about it, though I suppose I am discussing it more as a cultural phenomenon and how it has been popularly taken up in a bit of a Gok Wan, whay-hay girls let's flash our knickers kind of way.

I'm not going to back off about younger feminists, though I'm not attacking them either. I didn't even SEE the problems of older women when I was their age, and I think the current wave of young feminist campaigners are really impressive. Two things I would like to see, though: one is younger feminists at least affirming and having solidarity with the struggles of older women, and being a bit more aware of what we have contributed to their activism. And the other is older women not always pouring their energy into campaigning for the rights of younger women, but saving just a bit for campaigning for our own interests once in a while. I think, very often, we don't feel entitled to do that.

GarlicGiftsAndGlitter · 01/12/2014 23:14

Thanks More applause for your rousing post, Devora!

Help yourself to Cake and Wine We all need some, I suspect.

ArsenicSoup · 01/12/2014 23:15

Yeah, I've abandoned the poem to it's lynching and run for cover Grin

Hakluyt · 02/12/2014 07:13

Debora- I agree with very word- including the ones about younger feminists and that bloody poem!

Mehitabel6 · 02/12/2014 07:24

I am a bit scared to say it, but I actually like the poem.
I see it as everyone having to be sensible (men and women) in order to eat, keep a roof over their head etc and suddenly you are free. If I get to 90yrs+ I am going to aspire to it and certainly not behave the way society expects a 90 yr old to behave. I have told my children that I am going to be eccentric - but they say that I always have been!
However it will only fit me when I am what I call old in about 30 yrs time- if I am still around.
(Sorry- perhaps I am letting the side down Blush

echt · 02/12/2014 07:29

A sort of updated "purple"

vimeo.com/3986821

magimedi · 02/12/2014 07:36

Mehitabel - Don't feel scared to say you like it - you are allowed to.

It's the way 'wearing purple' has become a 'Gok Wan' (thanks Devora) thing that I dislike more than the poem per se.

And yes to being as eccentric as you like. As my life has progressed I have certainly felt more & more confident.

Mehitabel6 · 02/12/2014 08:24

Like it echt!
I can't seem to do the link to my favourite but try googling YouTube 'Older Ladies' by DonnaLou Stevens

DidoTheDodo · 02/12/2014 09:17

More huge cheers for devora. Your post should be required reading for younger women and men too, for that matter. I vote it in as part of the National Curriculum immediately.

echt · 02/12/2014 09:21

In my eagerness to promote Icelandic bad people of mature years, I forgot say hurrah and huzza for Devora's post.

Tip-top.

DameDiazepamTheDramaQueen · 02/12/2014 09:28

I've just remembered a thread from a while back about why are old people allowed to book doctors appointments in the morning when they could wait as they haven't anything else to do and it's selfish for those who work or with children?

I was beyond angry and do remember reporting it, there were loads of similar comments, it was horrible and so offensive.

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