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Original poster

To be shocked at the ageism on here tonight

18 replies

drudgetrudy · 27/11/2014 23:08

AIBU to be shocked at the terms used to refer to older people tonight.
We've had "old duffers", "old biddies" "old dears with nothing better to do" and this isn't a TAAT-its been on more than one thread.

If any other group were referred to in generalised and negative terms like this people would be going nuts.
People are people and come in many varieties over all age ranges.
Seriously pissed off tonight.Angry

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MNHQ

AmyMumsnet · 28/11/2014 16:40

Hi everyone,

Thanks for flagging your concerns. As with everything on the site, we take things on a case-by-case basis, but ageism is against our talk guidelines and we'll always take a look when it's reported and zap where necessary.

As for the thread started last night, it's been deleted now.

MNHQ

AmyMumsnet · 28/11/2014 17:29

@Mehitabel6

Maybe we need to report more. Looking back I see plenty of 'old cow', 'bitter old cow' -all unchallenged. Very often someone comes on and says 'I can't see why the age was relevant' -and I haven't seen one case where it was. While you are on AmyMumsnet-how do you defend heading a chapter 'dealing with the old biddies on the bus'?

Apologies but could you tell us which book that was in? We've had a quick look and can't find the chapter anywhere - of course, we could be missing something!

MNHQ

DawnMumsnet · 29/11/2014 10:10

@SconeRhymesWithGone

I really like MN and for the most part, I think that MNHQ do a good job of moderating. I do think they have become more conscious of ageism. But I have to say that I am very surprised about the "old biddies on buses" thing. I didn't know about that until today; as an American, I have never seen the book. I think an apology is due. Are you listening, MNHQ?

Hi Scone, hi everyone,

We're very much listening and taking note of the issues being raised on this thread, so please keep them coming. Justine's going to be popping on a bit later to share her thoughts.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 29/11/2014 19:19

Hi all,
Sorry for my delayed appearance - the community team raised the flag re MN Book last night, and that's squarely my responsibility so said I"d come on, but been chasing around after kids all day, so took longer than I'd hoped.

I agree with those who've said that calling someone "old" per se shouldn't be a problem but using "old" or variation of it as a shorthand for disparaging is something we ought to discourage.

Which brings us to the old biddies reference in the Mumsnet book....

Now, I know that some you will simply think using the words "old biddy" is offensive, per se. I do see where you are coming from and am happy to be persuaded/have that debate but I would say this, an old biddy as defined in the OED is "a woman, especially an elderly one, regarded as annoying or interfering". This was an entirely apposite use for the ensuing chapter, which was all about advising new parents - who might be slightly wraught/sensitive/defensive - not to take themselves too seriously and get annoyed - rather than saying just blank annoying, old people iyswim. It's a subtle difference but it's important.

Do the read the chapter if you haven't, I think it's actually very warm about older people and tries hard to offer a balanced perspective. Eg this

“Your baby is too hot.”
“Your baby needs a hat.”
“Your baby has lost a sock.”
“And someone says
"Your baby is cold"
And these over-sensitive mums all go BANANAS.
I often see over heated babies and feel sorry for them.”
(SuSylvester)

And the chapter ends with this, I think, touching quote from MN talkboards:

“The best 'interference' we experienced was when my daughter was 2 days old. We'd walked to the co-op but the pram was too big to get into the ridiculously small shop so I went in and left my husband with the pram.
An elderly lady came up and cooed at my daughter. Two minutes later the woman had tapped my husband on the shoulder and shoved a tenner into his hand saying 'that's for the baby mind, don't go spending it on beer'. Still makes me smile to this day (actually making me cry a little bit now, fecking pregnancy hormones).”
(Bumperlicious)

I do agree you that the issue generally of casual ageism is really important and indeed one that is reguarly discussed on Gransnet, where they have an everyday ageism forum and are planning a campaign. (#everydayageism).

Judging from comments here, it's something we should think a bit more about at Mumsnet too - both in terms of publicly supporting that campaign and calling folks out on it on the Mumsnet boards more/ encouraging people to report it, which is really how we're going to change things.

We were more than happy to delete the "old people driving thread the other day", as it was clearly unpleasant but I'd be wary of censoring every reference to an old biddy because I do think the usage/intention is important and sometimes it's better to have a discussion, as here, which has and will certainly made us think carefully about this issue and have a bit of an audit of ourselves and how we are moderating.

Thanks everyone who's contributed thoughts, very happy to hear more/continue the discussion but just rushing off to dinner now.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 29/11/2014 19:30

@bodhranbae

No drudge Don't bother. Gransnet is awful. The typeface is bigger and less cluttered because apparently being a grandmother makes you a ninny. It is the internet equivalent of someone going "Are you alright dear? Can you hear ok? Ah bless...."

Erm, no it's not, font is smaller on Gransnet. It might well be less cluttered - some would argue MN is a bit too cluttered, though.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 29/11/2014 20:10

@DidoTheDodo

"Usage and intention" ...if it applies to a racist or sexist phrase would you let it stand? If not, then please don't let an ageist one remain for the sake of 'discussion'.

But it's rarely that simple - there are, for sure certain, words and phrases that we would always delete but lots in a grey area where what swings it, is intention. Moron and moronic is an example.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 29/11/2014 20:14

@SconeRhymesWithGone

an old biddy as defined in the OED is "a woman, especially an elderly one, regarded as annoying or interfering".

This is the defense of using the term. Am I missing something here?

Yes - the next sentence: "This was an entirely apposite use for the ensuing chapter, which was all about advising new parents - who might be slightly wraught/sensitive/defensive - not to take themselves too seriously and get annoyed - rather than saying just blank annoying, old people iyswim."

The point of the chapter being they are regarded as annoying but not necessarily rightly.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 29/11/2014 20:21

@Pollywallywinkles

There are other words in the OED that if were used nowadays are racist even if the OED describes what the word means. We certainly would not be allowed to use them on here.

Derogatory comments about age are just as bad.

I agree they are. I guess the debate is about whether "old biddy" is always a derogatory comment about age, or whether it can just be a descriptive term about an individual.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 29/11/2014 21:01

@drudgetrudy

Justine-ask yourself honestly if you would like to be called an old biddy, would you find it "descriptive" or be a bit pissed off. Personally I'd be pissed off-especially if I hadn't even spoken and it was a pre-judgement (prejudice). Old duffer and old dear-even worse!

No, I don't want to be described as an old biddy, old dear, or old love, that's true. But then again I don't want to be described as old.

It's difficult - as said, I can see the point - but I'm wary of banning words - I think we should only do that very cautiously if I'm honest because once you start it is quite difficult to know where to draw the line. You think we should ban the use of old dear too? What about elderly? What about old?

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 29/11/2014 21:06

@GarlicGiftsAndGlitter

Justine, you could have just put "busybodies on the bus". There's no need to have used a derogatory stereotype. OK, you've done it now but perhaps it would have been more gracious to acknowledge it could have been done better.

Yes, you're right. The thing was we didn't think of it as a derogatory stereotype and certainly weren't intending to have a go at older people - the opposite really. I think you can tell that from the chapter that ensued.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 29/11/2014 21:18

@bodhranbae

Can you honestly not see the difference between biddy and old/elderly?!!

Then I suppose you also cannot see the difference between lardarse and fat/overweight. Or how about poofter and gay/queer?

Good grief indeed Sooty.

Yes I can, but as has been said some people regard elderly as an offensive use. I was making the point about drawing a line and where do you do it.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 29/11/2014 21:28

@SconeRhymesWithGone

Also, we are talking about MN using the expression, not random posters. I am probably not going to report every "old biddy" I see on here. I am upset about MN using it.

I'm sorry you're upset Scone - as said I don't think we regarded it as derogatory. And I think you can tell from the chapter that the intention wasn't to be derogatory.

Wrt to moderation policy, as said, I'd be wary of banning the word old biddy on the site, but that doesn't mean we'd never delete it, it would depend very much on context.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 29/11/2014 21:31

@drudgetrudy

Old or elderly as a description -no problem at all.

"Old dear" - ffs-the most patronising term I can think of.
I'm over 60-I'm getting old and soon will most definitely be old-no problem- but I am not a fucking "old dear".
My opinions are as strong as ever. I'm interested in politics, I'm interested in books (my favourite mumsnet site), I am interested that the next generation have a good life.
I am not a fucking busybody on a bus ( even a kind and well-intentioned one).
Beginning to loose my temper now. Angry Angry

I agree it's patronising drudgetrudy - but does that mean we disallow it?

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 29/11/2014 21:34

@ilovesooty

I don't regard over 60 as elderly but I have no problem with the term if it's relevant to what is being discussed, not just thrown in out of context. For example, my mother is in a home and I'd describe the residents as elderly in the context of relevant discussion.

I object to terms like "old woman" being bandied about when someone wants to complain about someone treating them badly in public where the age is irrelevant to the behaviour.

And there has been no response ftom HQ regarding the every day ageism going on on MN and in RL. The fact that Gransnet have some kind of (pretty obscure imo) campaign going on doesn't cut it for me.

Yes there has ilovesooty - you may not think it's adequate but there was a response - c&ped from earlier post:

Judging from comments here, it's something we should think a bit more about at Mumsnet too - both in terms of publicly supporting that campaign and calling folks out on it on the Mumsnet boards more/ encouraging people to report it, which is really how we're going to change things.

We were more than happy to delete the "old people driving thread the other day", as it was clearly unpleasant but I'd be wary of censoring every reference to an old biddy because I do think the usage/intention is important and sometimes it's better to have a discussion, as here, which has and will certainly made us think carefully about this issue and have a bit of an audit of ourselves and how we are moderating.

I've checked with the team and we actually get very few reports about ageism on the site, so the first place to start is to report things. We simply won't see them otherwise.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 29/11/2014 21:35

@Mintyy

I feel completely unenlightened by your explanation Justine.

Oh, sorry about that Mintyy.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 29/11/2014 21:37

@GarlicGiftsAndGlitter

"Old dear" is something my parents perform when they think the stereotype might work in their favour. Younger women might perform "dumb blonde" or "frazzled housewife" for the same reason. Nobody wants to be typecast, especially as a bit useless. The fact that we can sometimes play to type, for an advantage against those who cast us, doesn't make typecasting acceptable or charming.

I agree but again, would you have us delete it (and frazzled housewife and dumb blonde too)?

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 29/11/2014 21:43

@Sarine1

At last! A thread that tackles this creeping ageism that's growing on MN. I understand the anxiety about 'banning' words - but Justine, you could lead the way. Some of the MIL & PIL threads are truly awful and just littered with ageist comments and assumptions. I get that the in law relationship can be challenging but ageist comments are hardly ever called out on here. It would be a big improvement if MNHQ were to be seen to take the issue as seriously as other 'isms' I'm an older 60 plus mumsnetter. I've looked at Gransnet but as my life is full of people of ALL ages, I'd like my online existence to mirror that. And I hate seeing women disrespected because they're older on here. It shouldn't happen. Thank you drudge Flowers

Do report them when you see them Sarine1 - I promise we always look at reports. I can't promise we'll delete everything - because as evidenced by this thread - there may be some things we disagree on but we certainly would delete nasty stuff. The driving thread is one a good example - it was brought to our attention because folks reported it, if they hadn't it wouldn't have been deleted.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 30/11/2014 11:22

Morning all.
So having slept on it, here's where I'm at.

I will drop a line to our publishers of The Mumsnet Rules - if it's ever reprinted [optimistic] we'll change the description to busybodies as garlic suggested.

Sometimes, you only really get a sense of whether/how offensive or inappropriate things are via discussion - and this has been an enlightening one. As said we, nor did Bloomsbury, didn't think biddies was derogatory, and the chapter evidenced our intention not to be derogatory. But plenty of you disagree so that's something we need to take into account and I apologise for any upset caused.

With regard to site moderation, as said, we are simply not getting many reports of ageism, it's not that we are choosing not to intervene. If you think Mumsnet's ageist you can change it, by reporting instances of it.

Same with campaigns - we don't sit there at the beginning of each year, stroking our chins and wondering what our next campaign is, it comes from users. If a large number feel very strongly about a campaign about ageism we'd be more than happy to help coordinate something. Seems like we have a bit of a consensus here, so we're very happy to canvass opinion more widely about that on site and will do so in the next few weeks.

Thanks for all the input.

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