AIBU to nag my friend to give her pets away?

[RoseMask]

Ok, so back story quickly. . My friend has 4 DD's ranging from 2-10. She is a good mum, not denying she is there for her kids as much as she can be. But I feel their lives are kinda ruined by her obsession with pets. I'm all up for having animals, of course I am, but this obsession I feel is affecting the kids. Their back garden is now just a dog run. Everything evolves around the animals, money etc. says she cant buy them clothes but can buy a £45 dog house that day kids don't have the best clothes, or the best shoes. They sleep in beds where the dogs have been sleeping or the cats. There is hair everywhere in the food, on the cooker, on the sinks. The smell of dog poo is beyond a joke in their house if their back windows are open. In total there are 13 'furry-ish animals' I hate going round there because they are just everywhere. Literally. Every room you go into, and its not like they are laid back type of animals. I just feel bad saying to her that there are to many, and that the kids should come before the animals. That even though she loves the animals, the kids don't, and when she has a sh*t fit, its always about the animals and I feel she isn't coping well with all of them but makes out she is, if that makes sense? I know the kids don't like them, because they have told me outright. Some of the pets she has, I was like WTF?! Why? She thinks I'm being ridiculous and that they are her pets, she would never get rid of them but sometimes I just question how many are to many? Especially when the kids have to help out with them when they don't want to. I think what annoys me the most, is that because she is on benefits, every penny for the children goes onto these animals. Nearly £1500 of that on a dog. But the kids don't get much! God, I sound awful moaning don't I? But I just feel for the kids sake, surely this is to much for them? Lost count how many times one dog has poo'd on the kids bed. Or how many of the kids quilts have turned into dog beds. Or how many toys have been destroyed in the process. But sometimes I feel IABU!! Because it is her life, and her money and her house, but I just Arrgghh!
I know my friends sister goes round alot, and she has said that she doesn't understand why her sister wants all the animals, but is worried to say anything because her sister gets on the defensive and I know that the sister does have my friends DD's alot for her. So doesn't want any problems to stop that from happening. But surely if the sister can see theres a problem, then it isn't just me? I just hate going on Facebook and seeing my friend upload a new picture of another pet she has.

Its easy to say on here that radical and swift action must happen.

The reality is maybe nothing will happen, a cursory assessment and with the thresholds so high...

Who knows what will happen, but at least the OP has done the right thing.

As I said above, you seem to be determined to believe this is some utopian fantasty of animals and children all having a ball, like some episode of "Our Zoo" but it isnt, it really isnt!

Yes, I too get the vibes that gentle honey lives in a world filled with, well.... honey and gentleness. I on the other hand live in a world filled with dogs with ringworm, cats with earmites, houses filled with pet shit, pets that don't even get the basic level of veterinary care. I wish sometimes I could force people to spend a few hours a week in an animal shelter to "cure" them of this naivety .

Thanks gentle

Giles.. It is NOT what I believe (as i have already stated) but neither you or I know the full facts so I prefer to stick to those we do know about (even with these we only have the OP's perception of it. ) and not embellish further.

oh that's a laugh, that you stick to the facts and don't embellish further. Only a few posts back you were saying how "easily managed" this whole situation is.

If that's not embellishment, then I need a new dictionary.

Mayyhem, I do spend many hours in an animal shelter, but I dont think it is nice to condemn people for being ill, or to assume the worst when we have little facts.

I suppose we just have different ways of dealing with the same concerns? We are all in agreement that the lady needs a helping hand, and that the OP has done the right thing.

I agree mayhem, that is probably what will probably gallon, some of the animals will go into a shelter, friend will clean up enough for SS to back off, the animal hoarding will continue again. SS need to monitor this situation carefully.

It IS easily managed with ongoing support. Why wouldn't it be? As soon as the birds are gone it will be a thousand times easier, She has the support of the OP and social services and she will have her deeper issues addressed.
"Easily managed" compared to a lot of child protection issues. The OP has already confirmed that (apart from the problem) they are loved and well cared for.

Aeroflot, I dont understand. Why would the friend clean up enough to get the social services to back off? She can see she needs the help or she wouldn't have alerted them?

Gentlehoney, with all due respect, how can you spend many hours in an animal shelter and make such a naive statement that "this situation can be easily managed"?

Unless you just spend those hours in the shelter just stroking the cute kittens and brushing the cute dogs?

if you know anything about animal welfare concerns and animal hoarding, no way would you make that statement. Animal hoarding is an extremely serious, and difficult to treat, problem

And I am not condemning the women mentioned in the OP for being ill. I am not condemning her at all. What I am saying is 3 fold

1. the children get a clean and hygenic house to live in, with the necessary money spent on them
2. the pets get the care and attention they need, which doesn't include overcrowding
3. the woman herself probably needs extensive help to ensure this doesn't happen in the future

i don't live in your sweet gentle world, I live in the real one.

Mayyhem no. I don't just "stroke cute puppies and kittens"! What a mean spirited thing to say!

Yes, I do know about animal hoarding and have experience of dealing with it, and yes it can be "easily" managed. The support and understanding are available.

Your points...

"1) the children get a clean and hygenic house to live in, with the necessary money spent on them
2) the pets get the care and attention they need, which doesn't include overcrowding
3) the woman herself probably needs extensive help to ensure this doesn't happen in the future"

Is exactly what will happen. Therefore... Easily managed. We are in agreement. (though you seem determined to fight)

I didnt mean to minimise the amount of work that needs doing, and the huge amount of support, but it is a problem that can be solved initially by practical means and then by helping the underlying cause.

I would rather live in my world than one of aggressiveness, thanks!

It's easily managed if the friend wants it to be, and she wants to help make the situation better. If she dies not accept help and is in denial, and thinks that everybody is overreacting, which I think is the case, then it won't be. Op has said that friend seemed annoyed when op said that her child tax credit and CB were for her kids. Op friend has got to want to do it, and want to have help with her mental health issues.

Just had to clarify:

The OP said this

"All of their dads are no in the picture at all, she hasn't got much family apart from her sister, but she works, has her own family to contend with too."

which is her detailing that the lady in question's sister works, not the lady herself.

Benefit bashing aside, you did the right thing, OP.

Bold fail, Bob

If she does not then the situation will continue, and yes she might have her children removed from her.

.....Is exactly what will happen. Therefore... Easily managed.

You are really very naive Gentle .

Do you really believe that SS will just put all of the support, both practical and emotional, in place? Well they wont. They cant because a) they have very tight budgets, very high workloads and not enough staff and b) there isnt enough of the type of support the friend needs for her to be able to access it. Just ask any parent with a challenging child or one with extra needs how easy it is to get support and when they can summon the energy they will say "What support?".

They will do an initial visit, tell her what needs to be done and she will either do it by temporarily rehoming the pets and getting the dettol out just long enough for SS to say "Good, all done, off you pop" and then she gets the pets back or she wont in which case there will be more intervention that will end with the children being removed. At no point will SS say "Here is the number of a therapist specializing in your issue, just make an appointment and it wont cost you a penny :)" and you are very naive if you think they will. At best they will tell her to see her GP who, if she goes which she probably wont, will add her to the very very long list of people with MH issues who need a therapist. When her name gets to the top of that list she will be offered 6 sessions (or 12 if she is really lucky) and thats it.

Thanks Bob. So I was muxed ip after all!

Bogeyface, I am aware that the services are inadequate, and I really hope this lady will be given help quickly,but the initial clean-up and rehoming will solve the issue for the children, and there will be ongoing checks to make sure the children are safe.

As Aeroflot said, it is best if the lady really wants help. The OP mentioned that she has previously rehomed her pets, and although she has replaced them it just might indicate that she is aware of the problem?

I do hope so.

there will be ongoing checks to make sure the children are safe.

Not necessarily. As long as she sticks to what the SS say they will eventually sign her off and thats when she is very very likely to slip back into her old ways. She rehomed pets before, why I wonder? Perhaps there was SS involvement then and if so it clearly didnt work.

I get that you want to think that the best for everyone will happen but realistically, its very unlikely.

gentle, no doubt you'll find this another mean thing issued from my keyboard, with the sole purpose to upset you.

But wake up and smell the coffee and stop living in this sparkly fluffy fantasy world where people with animal hoarding issues are offered limitless help and support from social services and HCPs. They're not. In an ideal world they would be. But again, I live in the real world. Not some ideal utopian sparkly fluffy fantasy world where resources and healthcare are abundant, and available to everyone at the drop of a hat.

Read what Bogey wrote above. And next time you're at your local shelter, spend sometime asking for specific examples of animal hoarding and how many "well managed" cases they've been involved in as opposed to how many "extinguishing the immediate fire" cases they've been involved in.

And maybe you should also re-watch yesterdays news about the schizophrenic man who murdered his mother, after both him and his mother pleaded and begged for a bed to be found available for him when his condition worsened, only for the HCPs to tell them there were no beds and he wasn't that unstable and his schizophrenia was well enough under control that he wasn't a risk to himself or his surroundings.

Now his mother is dead and he is locked up.

That ^ is the reality of MH care in the here and now.

Not your version where you wave a glittery sparkly magic wand and resources aplenty fall at your feet.

If the resources aren't there to treat schizophrenia patients in crisis situations, then do you really think animal hoarding is going to be any kind of priority? The standard care for animal hoarding is a "sticky plaster" solution at best. Mop it up, turn the leaking tap off, and wait till the next time the floor is flooded, then rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. In 30 odd years of working in animal welfare I have never experienced one example that fits with your way of thinking, but have plenty of experience of my "sticky plaster" solutions.

Yes it is concerning that they have been rehomed before, why I wonder? Was SS involved. If they were and she has got new animals to replace the old ones, then the cycle will continue.

People who hoard animals often rehome one or more pets to "fix" an immediate problem

say for instance one cat is constantly urinating inappropriately, that is often due to stress or a UT issue, hoarders often can't be bothered, or can't afford don't have the resources to address the problem properly, so they just rehome the "problem" pet. The same goes for a dog that is being overtly aggressive or any of a multitude of behavioural and phsyical ailments. They rehome to get an immediate fix. Nothing stops them though from going on to replace the animal they have just rehomed by buying or acquiring another.

I know of one woman who rehomed around 10 cats, and some rodents too, cleaned her place up real good, repainted, replaced furnitute etc so her boyfriend would agree to move in with her. Within months of him moving in she got a couple of cats. Within (roughly) 2 years she had more pets and a messier, filthier home than she had before the bf moved in.

In my personal opinion many animal hoarders take an extremely blaze approach to rehoming pets and animal care in general. They will rehome animals at the drop of a hat as they think rehoming that one pet will solve all their problems. It seldom (if ever) does.

Mayhem it just seems like they are collection, easily dispensable. Seems like they do care for tge animals in a twisted sort of way. Like one would heard clothes, or items, these people hoarde pets. Unlike clothes, you have to look after pets and make sure they are clean healthy and fed!

I should also imagine that even by reducing the numbers as you still have to frequent pet shops etc ur would take one ad one photo of a litter of puppies or a sad lonely looking rabbit in pets at home in the adoption bit and the temptation would be immense. Not sure how manageable the situation would really be.

Aeroflot, I have never came across a hoarder who I would class as a genuine animal lover, no. A genuine animal lover knows resources (money for food, vet bills etc) is limited. A genuine animal lover knows animals don't function well in a 3 bedroom home with 6 other dogs and 7 other cats. They care more about their own need to have animals, than they care about the actual animal. They just play with words to make it out like they are "rescuing" the latest animal they take it on.

Giles, yes. Recovering alcoholics and drug addicts are generally advised to stay away from pubs (or groups of drug users) as remaining in those social circles just makes it that much easier to fall off the wagon - for the very reasons you state above.

The neglect of the kids is awful. And so is the animal abuse.

But I also find it immensely sad that the joy and benefit of pet ownership is something those children have never known. Instead they are at risk of growing up thinking this is normal. A whole new generation of animal hoarders. Huge strain on already over stretched resources and animal shelters.