Mother of sons and feminism

[Adnerb95]

Germaine Greer's book The Female Eunuch was life-changing for me when I was at uni many years ago. I still consider myself a feminist, love to see equality of opportunity for women, hate misogyny, think we have a way to go still ... BUT I think some current branches of feminism are seriously messing with young men's heads! Any mention, for example, of a false rape allegation brings down the wrath of any number of online commentators, who immediately label you a rape apologist, as if you are making light of a hateful crime, with no excuse. Apparently, admitting that there are - not often, but occasionally - false allegations is something to be dismissed out of hand and treated as unimportant. A friend's son was recently accused of a rape following consensual sex because she was fearful of the repercussions from her (hitherto secret!) boyfriend. The hell of that family's experience which is now finally over - the police have decided on no further action and actually apologised to the young man - has been indescribable. But it was the online reactions to any mention of such an allegation possibly being untrue, that caused the most damage not just the this young man's thinking but to my sons and their friends as well. I have taught them to respect women, to be caring and thoughtful. Never to objectify women or use them in any way. But they find it difficult to deal with the attitudes which have ben revealed, which see all men as potential rapists, users and so on. Isn't it time for the feminist community to realise that one day they may have sons and they may find that their sons can also be used and abused? That sometimes their sons may have reason to fear the other sex, sad though that may be?

I have sons and daughters

I don't worry at all about my sons being falsely accused of rape. It is so rare so it's really not on my radar. The thing that pisses me off most about the debate surrounding it is the reality of millions of women raped, assaulted, oppressed and any discussion around it descends into 'not all men' meaning 'not me' meaning 'I know you were making a point about something that dominates the lives of millions of women but can we please talk about me now.'

It's fucking depressing.

I raise my sons to respect boundaries, to be an ally, and to understand that sometimes, they just have to shut the fuck up and let the girls talk. I tell them in the plainest possible terms that women are people, the same way that they are people and they must respect their humanity. I tell them what it's like to be a woman and how that should influence their behaviour around women (not telling them to 'smile', not demanding their time or attention or expecting to be allowed to take up more space than a woman/girl, not talking over girls in class or bossing them off the football pitch at playtime). I tell them about the counting dead women project, and we talk about the way that violence against women and girls is reported in the media, and we talk about how women can't tell the difference between the nice guys and the bad guys so men have a responsibility to take that into consideration and not creep women out on the tube etc. I don't waste too much time telling them about evil women who will falsely accuse them of rape because I don't really see what I can do about it, the same way that I don't overly focus on what my daughters should do to 'prevent rape'. It's a completely pointless victim blaming exercise.

(sorry-only skim read)

The idea that because one half of the human race has been subjected to a wildly disproportionate amount of injustice, violence or mistreatment, that means it is OK to ignore any mistreatment which affects the other half, seems wrong to me

Feminism is subject to a lot of whataboutary which can be derailing. It is not the job of feminists to campaign on matters which affect men. Nobody is stopping men from doing that for themselves.

I don't really believe the argument that men aren't dragging down the patriarchy because they all benefit from it. I think mostly a great many people just never think about their lot, one way or the other, and have been schooled in one way of thinking/being and imagine it to be the only way. I think this is true of men and women. A lot of women aren't that keen on destroying the patriarchy either - is this because they benefit from it? There's something curiously patronising to women about the idea that men don't speak out against something because it's not in their interests to but women don't speak out because they've been conditioned not to/are unaware of the benefits of speaking out.

The status quo is very often attractive to human beings just because it's the status quo, regardless of perceived benefits or otherwise. I think that's pretty evident when you start having gender-based discussions about who suffered more from conscription in the World Wars. Basically, people suffered incredibly hugely, in ways that differed according to gender and class but the vast majority of people went along with conscription because it was what you did/what society mandated, not because it was tremendously more beneficial to be sent over the top than to stay at home in poverty and uncertainty.

I don't expect feminists to campaign on behalf of men but nor do I want my sons hearing stuff about women "not giving a shit" if a man is wrongly accused. The relative rarity of the problem is irrelevant.

The rarity of the problem is massively relevant.

"lot of women aren't that keen on destroying the patriarchy either - is this because they benefit from it?"

Yep. Many of them do.

"nor do I want my sons hearing stuff about women "not giving a shit" if a man is wrongly accused"

Did I miss where somebody said this?

Not to those accused it isn't.

Please can someone explain in words of one syllable what the connection is between false rape allegations and feminism?

It is horrendous that an estimated 2 men a month are falsely accused of rape. It is horrendous the an estimated 60000 women are year are raped. I'm sure we agree in that. I'm still not sure what you think feminists have done wrong?

Yes, Hakluyt - an early message used this phrase and one or two others have paraphrased this.

John Farley Ruskin - where SOME feminists have gone wrong is in acting as if false allegations are non-existent (rather than simply rare, as far as we know) AND that they can express contempt for those men who have suffered as a result.

Mr Sheen, I actually feel sorry for your sons if you don't provide any balance to all those messages you're giving them.

I tell them what it's like to be a woman and how that should influence their behaviour around women

I could tell my sons what it's been like for me to be a woman, or I could allow them to just know me as I am.

I don't want to tell them that my experience of being a woman has meant that I benefitted from a SAHM and it was great until I was at secondary school because it was normal for my dad to pay for everything, I don't want to talk to them about how it's perfectly acceptable for me to work part time and not be accused of being lazy or work shy which is what their father would get if he did the same. I don't want to tell them that despite their Dad being just as good a parent as me, I was the one who got to keep living with them after our split simply because I was female, and not do I want to tell them that because they were born before 2003, the fact that their father is named on their birth certificates means nothing and I am the one with all the legal power over them and could ship them to anywhere in the world without his consent simply because I'm female. I don't particularly want them to know that despite their father loving them since the second he found out that they existed inside me that I could have chosen to abort them and denied him his chance to parent his own children.

It doesn't really send them a great message about how important their own rights are, and how important their place will hopefully be one day as a father.

Personally, being a female has worked out pretty well for me, even if I have had to experience sexual abuse because of one bad person.

Trouble is, it is quite hard to devote a huge amount of energy to the very few false rope allegations when they are set against the abysmal level of conviction and the ridiculously light sentences in cases of real rape............

Why on earth don't you want to talk to them about those things? I would have thought that teaching them that if they want to be involved with their children's lives then to be involved is the key thing? And that to stand a reasonable chance of being an equal parent post split, being an equal parent pre split is a good plan? And I presume that you have made sure that your children's father has parental responsibility for them? And I also presume you are not saying that men should be able to force women to continue with pregnancies against their will? That's nothing to do with feminism- it's to do with biology.

I think the number of false rape allegations where there is absolutely no doubt that the alleged victim was enthusiastically consenting are very, very low.

I know of a fair few people who were "falsely accused" of rape , whereby the excuse is the victim and assailant were both drunk and I do not for one second believe that the women in these cases "made it up" or lied.

When the alleged assailants weren't charged or were found guilty I have seen them go on to make the victim's life living hell, whilst banging on about being "falsely accused".

Obviously there are cases when genuine false allegations are made but I imagine the number of instances a rape allegation is made where the "victim" was an enthusiastic participant is extremely low.

Sex (particularly drunk sex), is often active on the part of the man and passive on the part of the woman. Why some men don't seem to understand that you should not push your penis into a woman unless she is sober and enthusiastic is absolutely beyond me.

False rape accusations do ruin lives, but the risk of being falsely accused of rape I'm sure dramatically lowers of the man in question makes sure every single time he has sex that the woman is sufficiently sober and enthusiastically consenting.

I will be teaching my future sons not to have sex with drunk women; not because she might accuse them of rape, but because if she is drunk she may not have the appropriate capacity to consent and that as men, with the greater power to inflict harm in that situation, they have an absolute responsibility to not to that to another person unless they are 100% sure it is what she wants.

How do you know I haven't already spent time talking to them about the horror of rape and the injustice around that? You don't.

WooWoo re abortion I would like to think you teach your sons that a woman has absolute autonomy over her body and that a man absolutely cannot force her into doing something she does not want to with it and that includes carrying a baby.

And you didn't get custody of your children because you are female, you got it because you work part time and are the primary carer .

FWIW I know plenty of people who call SAHMs "lazy" and "workshy", that isn't something that only applies to men.

WooWoo - if their dad wanted parental responsibility he could have it.

Did they really live with you because you are female, or because you worked part time and did the majority of the childcare?

As for abortion, telling your sons that women have a right to bodily autonomy doesn't say anything about their rights except that they have no right to impose upon the bodies of women.

Not to minimise but false rape allegations are not feminisms problem. Feminism really has enough on its plate fighting for the rights of women and children,not just girls.

Wifework at its extreme.

I'm a feminist, mother of a DS and have brothers. I don't see false rape accusations as a feminist issue because that suggests a connection between feminism and falsely accusing someone of rape and there isn't any causal link to suggest that's the case. In fact there is research available on false rape accusations in England which includes a breakdown of the circumstances in which they arose. For anyone interested in the issue, it might be worth reading the research.

Unlike WooWoo I don't think my DC can know me if he doesn't know the political and social circumstances in which I grew up. Also, unlike WooWoo I do not think that the need for feminism has passed either in the UK or on the global stage.

My job as a mother is to try to prepare DS for living in the world as it currently is which includes sexism, inequality and violence. Hopefully his upbringing will both help to keep him safe and ensure he doesn't cause suffering to others. They are my primary concerns not false accusations, not because I don't have sympathy with anyone subjected to a false accusation of any crime but because false accusations are outwith my control and his.