Mother of sons and feminism

[Adnerb95]

Germaine Greer's book The Female Eunuch was life-changing for me when I was at uni many years ago. I still consider myself a feminist, love to see equality of opportunity for women, hate misogyny, think we have a way to go still ... BUT I think some current branches of feminism are seriously messing with young men's heads! Any mention, for example, of a false rape allegation brings down the wrath of any number of online commentators, who immediately label you a rape apologist, as if you are making light of a hateful crime, with no excuse. Apparently, admitting that there are - not often, but occasionally - false allegations is something to be dismissed out of hand and treated as unimportant. A friend's son was recently accused of a rape following consensual sex because she was fearful of the repercussions from her (hitherto secret!) boyfriend. The hell of that family's experience which is now finally over - the police have decided on no further action and actually apologised to the young man - has been indescribable. But it was the online reactions to any mention of such an allegation possibly being untrue, that caused the most damage not just the this young man's thinking but to my sons and their friends as well. I have taught them to respect women, to be caring and thoughtful. Never to objectify women or use them in any way. But they find it difficult to deal with the attitudes which have ben revealed, which see all men as potential rapists, users and so on. Isn't it time for the feminist community to realise that one day they may have sons and they may find that their sons can also be used and abused? That sometimes their sons may have reason to fear the other sex, sad though that may be?

Mr Sheen, I actually feel sorry for your sons if you don't provide any balance to all those messages you're giving them

Yes, that's exactly what I do. I provide no balance. I'll pass on your concerns but I'm not going to teach them that their 'rights' as fathers invalidate their children's rights to maintain the status quo. I won't teach them that it's 'unfair' that women get to do the lion's share of the work of childrearing and men can expect to take a back seat before a split and demand 'rights' after one. I certainly won't be telling them that if they get a woman pregnant then that women has to hand over her bodily autonomy to them. I won't be telling them that they are discriminated against because the gender pay gap means they will probably end up being better off than a female partner, or that they should feel put upon because their female partner takes a massive financial hit to undertake unpaid caring work and expects them to step up financially. They know I enjoyed my time as a SAHM, they also know that I've been called lazy and thick for doing it. How can you stand not using your brain?. They know 'me' as a person but they also know that I am who I am because of the society in which I exist and they know that they need to be aware of that system rather than doing a lot of hand wringing or not seeing the elephant in the room.

Conversation between 2 sober, fully conscious adults.

"Would you like to have sex with me now?" Yes, I know that you have your hands down my trousers and have instigated the removal of your own clothes and led me into the bedroom, but I'm just checking ...

(After a few minutes) "is that still the case, I mean that you would like to have sex with me?" Yes, I know you have now lain down on the bed and beckoned me over and that you have kissed me in some fairly intimate places, but I need to be sure.

" I mean, you haven't actually said Yes, please do put your penis into me for several minutes at least until you ejaculate, so could you just confirm my understanding of the situation?" Oh, so you have offered to perform a sex act on me, but does that mean I am allowed to do the same?

This is pretty much the transcript of the situation which arose for my friend's son - apart from the fact that he didn't actually ask those questions.

She then - fearing problems with her (as I said previously, hitherto secret!) boyfriend - accused this lad of rape. This is not the fault of feminism - I never said it was - but the posting of hateful, callous responses when the issue of false allegations (HOWEVER RARE they may be) arises IS the province of a certain type of feminist, which leaves men and boys confused.

I don't believe young men are confused by that at all. It's a callous response by a very tiny minority. What they might find more confusing is people pretending that fake accusations are widespread or is something to be taken much more seriously than sexual violence itself. Those are the prevailing attitudes in society today.

Actually I do know because she actually RECORDED the encounter! On the lad's phone, against his wishes - some people are both liars and stupid.

Ok, we can all accept that the case you quoted involved a girl lying about what happened.
This has happened before and no doubt will happen again to some poor lad and that is crap. Accepted.

I still don't see the feminist issue.
If the girl in your example made a statement to the police alleging rape then at the very least she's guilty of 'wasting police time' or if she lied to a judge she's perjured herself (?contempt of court - not a lawyer….)
So hopefully she'll get her comeuppance. I can only begin to imagine how awful and embarrassing her allegations must have been for the young man in question and his family.

HOWEVER - it's an issue for the law. I have never seen a feminist condone this at all.
I do understand that when people discuss the most common form of sexual assault and rape (man assaulting woman) that they do not want to be sidetracked by something that happens v rarely.

If you have never seen feminists make light of a genuinely false allegation, then I am surprised but believe me, it happens often online. There are several comments on this thread which also say - in effect - well, because false allegations are so rare and because the suffering of rape victims is so great (which it is) I can say I don't give "a shit" about the victims of such lies.

I can honestly say that I have not seen anybody way "I don't give a shit about the victims of false allegations of rape"

Re enthusiastic consent: IME it's hard to mistake enthusiastic consent .
Boys/young men need to learn that semi-conscious due to drink is NOT consent. That does not mean that everything has to be verbalised at all times and in all situations. And it also does not mean that either participant needs to be stone-cold sober either.

I think you are beginning to sound rather disingenuous tbh.

Nobody has said anything of that kind on this thread, and that you think they did and really makes your false accusation story less probable than it already reads.

The mobile recording was a nice touch, but I would have brought if in earlier to make it sound less made up.

I think we've all been saying pretty much the same thing for some time now, Empire…

If people didn't try and shove their 'well I once sat next to a bloke on the bus who was falsely accused'* stories into dialogue about the endemic sexual violence faced by millions of women and girls, as if it's anywhere near an equivalence then there would probably be fewer feminists having to point out the bleeding obvious i.e. being raped is actually, believe it or not, worse than being accused of rape and is significantly more likely to happen to someone and is a microscopically small problem when compared to actual rape.

It turns any discussion on rape into 'yes, well, that's awful but what about the men who are falsely accused.'
It turns the victims of rape into the perpetrators of the crime of 'ruining lives'
It leads onto discussions about anonymity, and punishment for women who can't produce enough evidence.
It stops victims of rape coming forward.

If you want to have a discussion about the impact that false rape allegations have on men, then by all means have one, but all to often these conversations only arise out of a discussion about actual rape. It needs to be a separate conversation, not a derailment or whataboutery. There is a subtle, but important difference between saying 'I don't give a shit' and saying 'We are talking about actual rape and we will not prioritise you in our conversation'

*applies to other relationships

Some people cannot read - 4th post on this thread - Saoirseba

"Sorry if I don't take pause to give a shit"

Those who can only think of calling people liars to bolster their argument are sad indeed.

Actually, I don't think false allegations are as important as world poverty, political corruption or global warming. It doesn't mean it should be treated as if it is of no importance. I have never talked about it as being comparable to rape. Those of you who are still taking that line are doing precisely what I feared in my OP.

Saoirseba gave a very detailed response to your opening post

yet you decided to c&p one line from the second post

and you claim that your sons are confused by feminists maybe like you they are not bothering to read all that is posted

your sons need to educate themselves as to what is really happening not just learn from one experience look at statistics no man I know lives in fear of being called a rapist why would they

I have an acquaintance who will tell anyone who cares that her boyfriend was once the victim of a false rape allegation. He was found 'not guilty'. Far from the same thing, but of course she doesn't see it that way.

I'm a feminist and I have one child, a son. I see absolutely no conflict there at all. In my 16 years of motherhood there has been one brief instance where I thought he was being unfairly discriminated against for being male. I wonder if parents of daughters get through 16 years that easily? Everything I believe that should change in our society would benefit my son too, if indirectly.

fluffing I think you're absolutely right on that one. I'd be interested to know how many feminists vote green given they propose that women shouldn't go to prison and men should.

Interesting first thread OP.

OP- interesting that you keep referring back to a comment made by one poster who made one post, rather than to the pages of other comments - is that because that's the only comment that supports your view?