Mother of sons and feminism

[Adnerb95]

Germaine Greer's book The Female Eunuch was life-changing for me when I was at uni many years ago. I still consider myself a feminist, love to see equality of opportunity for women, hate misogyny, think we have a way to go still ... BUT I think some current branches of feminism are seriously messing with young men's heads! Any mention, for example, of a false rape allegation brings down the wrath of any number of online commentators, who immediately label you a rape apologist, as if you are making light of a hateful crime, with no excuse. Apparently, admitting that there are - not often, but occasionally - false allegations is something to be dismissed out of hand and treated as unimportant. A friend's son was recently accused of a rape following consensual sex because she was fearful of the repercussions from her (hitherto secret!) boyfriend. The hell of that family's experience which is now finally over - the police have decided on no further action and actually apologised to the young man - has been indescribable. But it was the online reactions to any mention of such an allegation possibly being untrue, that caused the most damage not just the this young man's thinking but to my sons and their friends as well. I have taught them to respect women, to be caring and thoughtful. Never to objectify women or use them in any way. But they find it difficult to deal with the attitudes which have ben revealed, which see all men as potential rapists, users and so on. Isn't it time for the feminist community to realise that one day they may have sons and they may find that their sons can also be used and abused? That sometimes their sons may have reason to fear the other sex, sad though that may be?

I agree - up to a point. I am currently sorting some of my Grandmother's stuff. An autograph book given to her on her sixteenth birthday signed by young boys and girls, friends and family. She was 16 in January 1915. None of those boys lived. My Grandmother lived until 93 and whilst it wasn't easy it was not the same as what happened to the boys. so equal is not always as black and white as it seems.

Vivacia, yes of course I agree that that has happened, but I can't see how it's relevant to today's children or how it's helpful to future society to keep going on about it.

Because the inequality is current and feminism is needed because the inequality is not a recent thing!

How do boys take up more physical space than girls??? Not in any primary class I have seen. Growth charts generally show girls growing faster until the boys teen growth spurt.

When men are oppressed it's a tragedy, when women are oppressed it's a tradition.

None of those boys lived. My Grandmother lived until 93 and whilst it wasn't easy it was not the same as what happened to the boys. so equal is not always as black and white as it seems.

I'm not sure I get your point about feminism here.

I want BOTH my children to survive and be happy in this world. I don't want anyone thinking my son is automatically a wife-beater, useless, a lesser parent, a potential rapist or an oppressor.

I don't want anyone thinking my daughter is automatically a slut, an inferior employee, a victim, a sex-object or anything else which demeans her.

Being prejudiced and making life difficult for one sex but calling it "redressing the balance" is just being prejudiced.

I will defend BOTH my children, (and BOTH sexes), from this - to the best of my ability.

I don't want anyone thinking my son is automatically a wife-beater, useless, a lesser parent, a potential rapist or an oppressor.

Where does feminism suggest this?? At best I think you could claim feminism points out that some people are overwhelmingly far more likely to be a victim of domestic violence or rape or oppression, for no other reason than they are female and not male.

"Being prejudiced and making life difficult for one sex but calling it "redressing the balance" is just being prejudiced."

I agree.

But expecting the sex which has previously held all 52 cards to hand a few over is not. 26 each is what we should be aiming for. And we're not there yet.

As I sadly felt likely to be the case, some posters have completely ignored the fact that I admitted that this (false rape allegations) situation was not common, although the reality is that no-one knows - just as no-one knows the true rape statistics. The case having been dropped by the police does NOT mean that the case is recorded as a false allegation!
In any case, however rare, it is highly damaging as some posters have mentioned. And it is damaging not just to the men/families involved. It is also highly damaging to the victims of rape. It muddies the waters and makes the poor rate of conviction MORE likely rather than less. The attitude of saying you couldn't care less is precisely the problem I am highlighting.
So, ho would you feel if a man (perhaps your son/partner) is falsely accused of murder. Would the fact that murder is a heinous, dreadful crime make a false allegation related to it somehow unimportant?? Rather the reverse.

The idea that if a son is brought up to respect women he will be less likely to be the victim of a false rape allegation is ridiculous. The two are completely unrelated.

Vivacia - my point was that when the boys were automatically sent to fight, (or, when there was conscription humiliated or shot, (deserters) if they refused) - women were not.

Many people would NOT say that that that was a favourable option for the boys.

Lovely gentle boys were treated very badly in the army and once on active service they were routinely killed in horrible ways.

What I am trying to say is that in the world it is unhelpful to say that the men have it all their own way and the women are all poor victims.

Anyway - got to go - lunchtime. (NO NOT a slave to the family - just want to eat something myself )

"The idea that if a son is brought up to respect women he will be less likely to be the victim of a false rape allegation is ridiculous. The two are completely unrelated."

No it isn't. A man can put himself at risk of an allegation of rape if there is any blurring of consent. I hope that my son will never ever have sex with a woman who is not enthusiastically and soberly consenting.

So is your argument that feminism is wrong because nearly a generation of men were killed in the first World War?

I think if we have more and stronger feminism, less men will rape, and there will be correspondingly, less false rape accusations. So really, what we need is positive discriminationin in politics to get more women in charge of things, quotas and things. I could write to my MP about it inspired by this thread.

By the way - I am not anti - feminist or women. I am in my late 50's and had to fight very hard in the seventies to be allowed to, among many other things:
---wear trousers at work, have access to the best jobs, not be patronised by male bosses, not to be "fondled" as part of the bosses rights, to get my own mortgage, to sign my own paperwork, to be called Ms not Miss or Mrs etc etc.

Right - really must go - sorry. A bit fast moving for me and am starving - but v interesting opinions here.

I don't believe it is a privilege to act in a way that oppresses others, particularly where that involves aggression or violence. It's just more rage, and rage is (in my belief system) suffering.

I hope my sons avoid suffering just as I would if they were daughters. I hope they feel whole enough as HUMAN BEINGS not to want to cause others to suffer, male or female. I hope I have done enough to prevent them from causing casual suffering through informing them of ways they might cause oppression to women unthinkingly because of our culture. False rape allegations would not be my first thought of how they might suffer, though.

Er- false allegations of rape are awful. It is devastating.

How are you working out that feminists are to blame though?

No Vivacia - that is not my argument!!!! My argument is that feminism is right but must not be misused and devalued by saying that Men have ALWAYS had the advantage and that the situation is always balanced in favour of men. The war was a clear example of when it was very much better to have daughters than sons and you were lucky to be a woman in 1916.

I'm sorry for the lad in the OP, but it is very rare, and I will be teaching my son to be very, very sure that the woman he's about to have sex with is OK about it, and enthusiastic about the whole deal.

That is what we should be teaching our sons, that if anyone has even a grain of doubt that having sex is a a good idea, then he should back off and wait for everyone to be sure.

How do you know the girl in question was not enthusiastically and soberly consenting in the case I have mentioned? Which, by the way, there was irrefutable evidence that she was?

I'm not sure that it's 'lucky' to be the sex that stays at home whilst the other is sent to war...

Besides which, the women who were at home, their situation didn't get any better, probably also got worse, and plenty of them were already in poverty. Now they were in poverty with no male salaries coming into the household and many resources being made more scarce.

Hardly balanced in women's favour.

The boy has had a terrible injustice against him.

So you feel it was feminism going too far?-or what? Because I'm failing to see your point.

OK. The patriarchy- insofar as it is an actual thing rather than a mindset- is made up of men. The patriarchy oppresses women- and so by extrapolation men oppress women. Some people go on to claim this mans that when bad things happen to men it must be down to feminism- or women. As if the patriarchy and feminism are two sides of the same coin. But the patriarchy oppresses men too. It is the patriarchal mindset that sends men to war, for example, not feminism. It is a patriarchal judicial system that sometimes treats men unfairly, not feminism.

So men should actually be as keen as women on destroying the patriarchy. But they aren't - because they benefit hugely from it. The top of the tree hold the most cards, but some cards do filter down to other men too. And men hang pretty tightly on to the cards they've got!

I'm not suggesting that feminists are to blame for false allegations - I think I made it clear that I was concerned about the tone of the online debate around this issue, which were very reactionary - as demonstrated by one or two posters here - and dismissive of the extreme pain and damage caused. This tone was evident in the postings of those who self-identified as feminist. The idea that because one half of the human race has been subjected to a wildly disproportionate amount of injustice, violence or mistreatment, that means it is OK to ignore any mistreatment which affects the other half, seems wrong to me. In fact, how can you talk about injustice unless your concern is just as much for those who are not on "your side" as for your own?

I do have massive sympathy btw- and yes it does cross my mind as another thing to worry about. I also have sympathies with boys who are lied to about contraception etc- but this doesn't affect my views on feminism. Why would it?

The war was a clear example of when it was very much better to have daughters than sons and you were lucky to be a woman in 1916.

But it was easier to be a man in 1913 because you could vote, work, be educated, refuse to have sex with your spouse, inherit...