Mother of sons and feminism

[Adnerb95]

Germaine Greer's book The Female Eunuch was life-changing for me when I was at uni many years ago. I still consider myself a feminist, love to see equality of opportunity for women, hate misogyny, think we have a way to go still ... BUT I think some current branches of feminism are seriously messing with young men's heads! Any mention, for example, of a false rape allegation brings down the wrath of any number of online commentators, who immediately label you a rape apologist, as if you are making light of a hateful crime, with no excuse. Apparently, admitting that there are - not often, but occasionally - false allegations is something to be dismissed out of hand and treated as unimportant. A friend's son was recently accused of a rape following consensual sex because she was fearful of the repercussions from her (hitherto secret!) boyfriend. The hell of that family's experience which is now finally over - the police have decided on no further action and actually apologised to the young man - has been indescribable. But it was the online reactions to any mention of such an allegation possibly being untrue, that caused the most damage not just the this young man's thinking but to my sons and their friends as well. I have taught them to respect women, to be caring and thoughtful. Never to objectify women or use them in any way. But they find it difficult to deal with the attitudes which have ben revealed, which see all men as potential rapists, users and so on. Isn't it time for the feminist community to realise that one day they may have sons and they may find that their sons can also be used and abused? That sometimes their sons may have reason to fear the other sex, sad though that may be?

apparent consent feels like the safest option

Is this something most men don't do?

Not IME.

I found my (now) DH quite odd when we were first together because he was so careful to make sure I was happy and to make sure I never did anything I didn't really want to do.

His mother had brought him up very much like you are raising your sons - to understand the potential for coercion, for putting pressure on someone, to understand also the way that girls were likely to be raised to try to please against their wishes.

I used to think it was a bit OTT, but the older (and allegedly wiser) I get, the more I think that my MIL was absolutely right.

I don't do the written contract before play thing, although I know people who do.

The fact is, most of BDSSM is illegal, well once you start with the hitty things it is, and that would make any contract completely useless.

contract is meaningless in a sex context anyway - consent can be withdrawn at any time you can't just wave a contract at someone and say "well you signed...!"

Exactly Petula. And either partner has to be able to say stop at any point either before or during sex.

Petula 'I don't think it's a fault of the "vanilla world" as such - what we are talking about here is the influence of patriarchal society.'

I think maybe I introduced the idea that the vanilla world (love the phrase "vanilla space", btw!) was more dangerous because this stuff went under the radar.

And I agree Petula with how you've put it, but I think what I was trying to say (but presumably phrased clumsily) was actually meant to be the other way round: we live in a patriarchal world such that vanilla sex is often tacitly mildly sub-dom to the extent that we are conditioned to expect "normal" men to be dominant at least to the extent of being the initiator of sex more often than not, and to expect "normal" women to be more (not entirely) passive. (If this seems like an exageration, count up the sheer number of posts on the threads that occasionally pop up here about "I want my OH to propose" - for every poster saying "if you want to get married, why don't you propose to him?" there's about 5 to 10 saying "but it wouldn't be the same/it wouldn't be romantic/ I'd never know if he actually wanted it..."). And against this backdrop, vanilla sex is potentially more problematic in that because it's seen as normal, and the power relations are so much part of everyday culture that we don't even see they're there any more, we don't discuss consent and boundaries enough.

(I'd actually go further and say it's not just potentially more problematic - in actual fact it's a hell of a lot more problematic - you just have to look at the huge rate of domestic violence and sexual abuse within relationships. In fact I'd say it's almost like the way people worry about ecstasy use in teens while not batting an eyelid at alcohol use in adults - when in terms of social damage, alcohol is a far more dangerous drug on just about any measure).

true empire, but in terms of education about consent i'm not sure that that scenario is really taken into accoutn. but you're right it's different

no you've said it perfectly lurcio but i was misremembering and being lazy about looking back through the thread on my phone. the "vanilla" terminology implies a lack of risk that doesn't actually exist and isn't taken seriously

Female subs may view it differently, that is true. Bear in mind, too, that it very much depends what clubs/events/groups you frequent. There are two local-ish groups to me that I wouldn't touch with a twenty foot pole.

I've seen that piece before. I commented extensively on it on Fetlife a number of months, if not a year or two ago (I've been off fetlife for a long time it's hard to remember).

She was a victim of predatory males. She was used and abused in a way that is absolutely unacceptable.

I have posted on fetish sites extensively about the one twue way of dominance, about predatory doms who hunt out newbies and abuse them. I call them on it every time I see it happening. I don't go to certain groups - one because I was banned because I called the "group leader" out on his actions, towards a sub.

I wrote about consent. Over and over. Got it made a sticky in groups. Banged on and on and on about it til folks were fed up. Because, you know what, they don't want to listen. They come on fetlife and other sites posting about being a no limits sub and wanting abused. And when I would tell them to be careful what they wished for. That there were sick sad individuals who would not respect their boundaries and who would chew them up and spit them out.

I have, on occasion, walked a sub to her car to stop a predatory Dom walking her to her car. I have called an academic supervisor to tell them that a young student was putting herself in danger.

And there's only so much I can do. I know that friends of mine who are still on fet will - and do, as recently as last month - pass my details on to women who have been abused by so-called Doms.

I find it difficult to believe that men in the BDSM community are very different from other men. Most men do not actually rape or sexually abuse women- but I am prepared to bet that dominant men into BDSM who are?potential rapists and abusers use exactly the same language and mind set as their more vanilla peers. With the additional complication that presumably submissive women are even less likely to assert themselves than their vanilla peers.

Hak - submissive women are not less likely to assert themselves. That's wrong, in my experience.

well presumably the BDSM aspect gives those men more opportunity to use the excuse "but she said she wanted it" if they are abusers - see the whatshisname in canada case. which is why "legitimate" (apologies if for clumsy language) BDSMers are so hot on consent themselves. but those men will still make use of the community if they can i imagine

They won't last long in any community of any size. They will be called on it, and banned.

What happened in the group I called the Dom out on is that they then form a group of their own - but that has now died a death because BDSSM is a small tight knit community and people talk.

And Jian thingy from Canada has been roundly condemned by the BDSSM community.

yes, but you know yourself how BDSM may be viewed from the outside. if men like jian whatnot are using it as an excuse, and people go along with the "but that's what she wanted, she's a BDSMer" story (as they are wont to do in a society that is both patriarchal and liberal). so as long as that is misunderstood (and i'm by no means saying this is your fault or responsibility frauhelga), it will be used by abusive men, as they use all the other myths and stereotypes to get away with whatever they want to do

I'm glad to hear that about sub women- but as "vanilla" women often find it incredibly difficult to say no, I am not particularly reassured........

crossed with empire there