To be a bit dismayed if 4 million women visit this site,why are there so few posts on the feminism threads?

[Scarletohello]

Ok so I know there are lots of lurkers but if there are really millions of women who go on MN, why are so many threads on the feminism section consisting of so few women? It doesn't make sense to me as so many issues that
women post about on many different topics are actually feminist issues when it comes down to it...

Start a thread, g'wan, g'wan! - nope.... but do feel free...

I think this disagreement thing is the crux of the issue.

I'm Christian. I'd say the majority of FWR regulars are not, and some of them are quite outspokenly angry about organized religion, and see it as a form of institutionalised misogyny.

I do sometimes find that personally upsetting, obviously.

I don't think that means people shouldn't pile onto a thread to talk to me about it. It would be dishonest for them to pretend they don't hold these views - because they really believe they're right, and that it is an issue that has huge significance.

A lot of the issues on FWR are like that, so no, you can't define 'comfortable' as meaning 'only so many people should be allowed to disagree with me at any one time'.

I never visit the FWR boards, not because I'm 'scared' of them or anything like that, I just use mumsnet in a different way ( I'm not into heavy debates - not on/line anyway.) But I can't thank the feminist movement enough for all the hard work they did back in the 60's & 70's - they paved the way for the younger generation ( a few of whom sadly mock them now ) but I have nothing but the utmost respect for them all - yes even the 'shouty' ones, because without them we wouldn't have the freedom we have now.
There's always a few who take things too far and have extreme views, but that's true in any political movement, but feminists had to shout louder to be heard & you can't blame them for that.
I'm not sure what the feminist movement is up to these days ( have all the battles been won? - I don't know ) but I'll always be on their side.

There's a significant irony here that a number of posters have tried to get MMHQ to change the Talk Guidelines to actually stop people discussing certain topics on FWR (as is the case on a number of mainstream feminist sites) but they complain about not posting on FWR just because people disagree with them.

I dunno, Orlando. MNHQ will delete genuine bullying. They deleted someone recently who hounded me across a thread and claimed I'd called her a misogynist. It was really unpleasant and I wouldn't wish it on anyone else - but, they did delete it.

So I suppose, the system works?

A lot of the issues on FWR are like that, so no, you can't define 'comfortable' as meaning 'only so many people should be allowed to disagree with me at any one time

Do you think there is a dominant view of some feminist issues and a particular feminist ideology on FWR?

Do you think this dominant view stops people posting who may have a different view?

"I thread asks why women don't post. It gets answers and the answers are denied. Thereby lies the problem."

I don't think the answers have been denied. For me, the problem is that the answers have been to vague- and certainly my attempts to get more specific ones didn't go down well. My tentative thoughts are these. 1) People sometimes equate being disagreed with with being shouted down. 2)That there are some "thus far and no further" views which if expressed will get a poster her arse handed to her - anyone suggesting that a woman contributed to her own rape or sexual assault, for example. 3) Some people are not used to women expressing themselves forcefully 4) Sometimes people see what they want to see - the thread about the shopkeeper calling someone "love" was a case in point. It was reported on this thread as a poster "exploding with anger" -when all she said was she didn't like it very much. 5) Some posters are fascinated by feminism as an academic subject- I'm sure that can feel very intimidating.6) There are single issue posters on both sides 7) If you have been a feminist for a very long time (over 40 years in my case) it is difficult not to be exasperated by the fact that we are having exactly the same discussions nowthat we had then- we genuinely thought it'd all be sorted out by now! And I find it hard to keep that exasperation out of my tone- must try harder. And I think that is part of the problem- I have to stop myself saying to women saying they are being bullied on an Internet site "oh for goodness sake, stop being so wet!! Think about what women all over the world have gone through and are going through. I knew women who were beaten up because they went to a consiousness raising group. And you won't post on a feminist board because somebody anonymous said something disobliging to you? Come on sister- fight your corner!" I want to say that, but I don't. But I fully accept that some of that might come through!

Speaking as a man who is militantly gender-egalitarian and eager to learn more I've had some very interesting and educational discussions on with some posters in that section. However, a single poorly chosen word can lead to swarm of subtley personal attacks and (from both a personal perspective and that of an observer) revealing an iota of emotional vulnerability seems to be an invitation to drive them home all the harder.

I suspect part of that impression is that, if your view is a minority a dozen posters will have disagreed with you while you're still trying to find your voice, which can make a perfectly innocent consensus feel like a coordinated attack. I also feel pretty certain that some posters revel in their own hostility and try to engineer opportunities to justify it.

I'd say thanks, Like, but I'd feel like I was taking credit for things I didn't do ('I am the feminist movement, me!' ). But that post made me smile.

I suppose the system does work - FWR is a forum now for feminists with a radical feminist ideology and people who disagree with that don't bother posting there.

Has the call to arms been made yet?

What's so wrong with that, orlando?

Ok, fine, radfem stuff isn't for everyone, but I don't see why it should be silenced.

And, you know, people do post there. Loads of them. Many not radfems. Maybe if you ever came in, you'd see that.

Rad fem shouldn't be silenced.

Feminists who aren't radical feminists shouldn't feel silenced, I think many do.

Maybe I should pop in.

I bet I can start a 1000 post thread.

Well, but what is it other than silencing, if you're asking people to pretend they don't disagree with you?

Or am I getting wrong what you are asking here?

Often after these wingeing about FWR threads some new people pop in to FWR to have a look. I've seen several occasions when there's been a barny between two newcomers and one or both say "see this is why no-one comes here, you're all so hostile".

You don't get it.

There is an ideology on there. If you have a different ideology but are still a feminist, you can feel shouted down as many people disagree with you.

Imagine being a minority voice everytime. Eventually you can't be bothered.

No answer. But that's how FWR feels to some people. So they give up and leave it to the majority.

flora, I've seen that too.

But I think people bring expectations to MN in all sorts of ways, anyway. I went to a feminist conference a while back, and met this woman who said she'd tried Mumsnet, and was utterly shocked because she posted one evening, and in the morning there were replies! As if these women had nothing better to do with their time!

She made it sound as if replying to a thread was a faintly deviant and/or stalky practice no decent human being would engage in.

I think you get that a lot with FWR - people read an awful lot into responses ('shouting' or 'hysterical' or 'shrill'). If you're used to it, you just think 'uh ... no, we're the normal ones, what did you expect us to do?!'

But, orlando, I am a minority voice. I just pointed that out.

It doesn't make me give up. It certainly doesn't make me think other people owe it to me to misrepresent their views, or go silent about them.

It's a bit rich to tell me I don't get it when you clearly didn't follow the post where I explained this.

incommensurability

And that's why I like Buffy.

I used to hide certain posts on FWR. No guesses which. Now I don't go there at all - it's a shame but I do it for my own mental health.

So what? People get disagreed with on MN all the time. Is it just on FWR women mustn't express their views because some people don't agree?

It's why people don't post there.

I don't post on the feminism section for a lot of the same reasons that others have posted.

These threads always go the same way though, the feminism regulars just deny that there is a problem despite many voices saying the same things. How do you expect to influence people that deny that there is a problem with equality when you don't seem to be able to reflect on your own behaviour?