Holidays and in laws!

[outofcontrol2014]

My MIL is being very clingy these days. Completely understandable because she lost GFIL at the start of the year, after a long illness. DH and I are trying to be supportive, speaking regularly on the phone, sending gifts, seeing her and FIL as often as we can (they live a 5 hour drive away, which means this has to be for a weekend, which we manage 4-5 times a year).

MIL and FIL have recently started to press extremely hard for a family holiday away. However, while I am comfortable to go for a weekend, I know that I cannot emotionally or practically be there for a whole week.

There are several aspects to this. Firstly, DH has a very responsible job and is often able to take less than 10 days' holiday a year. (Yes, he has a statutory entitlement to more, but feels that he has to be present more often to keep on top of things and look after the people he looks after). If we spent a week with PIL, it would be literally almost all of that time used up. We barely get time to ourselves! Selfishly, I would like us to be able to take a holiday alone.

Secondly, I am quite a private person, but PIL insist that the entire day from 9am to 11pm has to be filled with Activities, and all of those Activities have to be done as a group - meaning that there is literally no time for people to do their own thing. If you opt out, there is sulking! You even have to go together in the same car, which means there can be no escape. For someone as pathetically introverted as me, I find this a real challenge!

Thirdly, PIL are extremely loud and they talk without stopping from one end of the day to the next. If there is no-one in the room, they will talk to themselves. Naturally with so much talking there is very little space for them to listen to anyone else. I have health problems and sometimes I can't do the activities they want to do - and however clearly I try to express this (and I have been quite blunt about it) they simply bulldoze me and go ahead anyway. I find this very difficult to deal with, particularly as it often leads to embarrassment/pain or anxiety about embarrassment/pain on my part!

WIBU to say no to the whole week, but yes to a weekend as part of it? How should I go about dealing with this. I can't emphasize enough that PIL mean well and have had a rough time lately, but are just very used to having their own way.

Lotta- I am so, so sorry to hear about your struggle. It must have taken so much bravery to get through the impact that the whole process had on you.

It sounds absolutely brutal.

I completely understand your point, but I think it's my fault for not expressing things very well. They are very strange, some of the strangest people I have ever met and it is hard for me to write what they are like, even though that's what I do for a living! (Ach, I am having an afternoon of feeling inadequate about something I have written!!)

I don't think they are narcs, though I can completely understand how my description of them comes over that way. The closest way I can put it is to say that I think they have some kind of a social dysfunctional disorder, where they lack the ability to empathize, and are just not very good at communicating and especially at picking up communicational cues from other people. It is like they are socially deaf - not actually deaf, but that they can't hear the cues that people give out. Kind of like a small child.

I have no idea whether there is a pathology like this, or whether it's even appropriate to describe how they act in pathological terms.

I am also wondering whether we need an 'in law visit/holiday support thread'. With a big red emergency button!!!

Outofcontrol, did you leave the restaurant immediately after your DH was sick? Because I couldn't have born being there with them ignoring what they had done.

I am amazed that you both still go and stay with them. When you mentioned that DH was sick before I thought it was at a time when he was particularly stressed, but clearly it is recurring and I would urge you not to even contemplate a holiday with them, and give serious thought to minimising contact. You can work on this from a distance, it's easier to refuse them by phone because you can hang up before any shouting starts, and if feeling vulnerable choose not to answer at other times when they call. You make talking with them conditional, they treat you and DH with respect and no shouting, or you hang up. Equally, when you meet in person they do the same or you will leave. This is why I suggested not staying with them when you visit, so that you have somewhere to escape to. When you walk away you are giving a clear message that you will not tolerate their behaviour, it isn't running away as long as they know you will do this if they start the voice raising and competing to be heard.

Thanks for your kind comments OP. I'm still working my way through it but its getting easier.

I love the idea of the support thread! Could have done with it last weekend when we were staying with DP's parents

lotta- It must take a long time to get through. I want to thank you especially for taking the time to comment on stuff here and give me advice, because it must have been triggering for you and really difficult. We should definitely set up that thread!

girly - No we didn't leave! DH didn't make a dramatic exit, but just slipped off as if going to the loo. It was a while before I realised he'd been gone a long time (sometimes he takes ages on the loo, but not usually in public)! I then looked up and saw him outside, just at the corner of my vision but out of PIL's sights, so I excused myself and went outside to find out what was going on and found him standing over a load of sick. I then came back into get some water and explain that he was feeling ill, and went back out again. DH was insistent on staying rather than leaving, partly because we were saying goodbye to them after a weekend at their house afterwards. Had we tried to leave, I think there would have been an almighty fuss which would have been even worse for him.

He has had counselling and is starting to find it easier. The stomach pains and vomiting used to happen every time they came, but it hasn't happened for a while. We are getting better at setting limits but we need to improve a bit more quickly this time!

I'm really glad that he's seeing a counsellor. Dealing with people like this when they are your parents - people who are supposed to love and protect you - can be seriously traumatic and leave you questioning just who on earth you are. I hope things get better for both of you. Start putting yourselves first.

If they are that bad why spend any time with them and why not make them aware of the reason why you don't spend time with them? I'm not clear why you both seem to think his parents' peace of mind and happiness should take priority over yours.
If my inlaws made my husband that ill I'd be telling them this and getting them to back off and just seeing them in very small doses of a couple of hours and telling them why.

Thing is I don't think you have to have a huge falling out with them. You just become implacable. There is no point in wondering why they are that way, they are what they are.

I'd treat them by withdrawing every time they ask for more than you have agreed to give. So when your MIL started talking about a week, you suddenly have to go because of a household emergency. Or if she starts pushing for a week, when you have said 4 nights, then you could say oh I don't know if 4 nights is going to work for us after all.

Another strategy might be to catch up with BIL ( is it BIL) and agree with them what your limits would be for a family holiday and then present it to PILs as a fait accompli. Your PILs are very lucky they have loads of contact, they need to accept that they cannot have all your free time.

Outofcontrol, could PIL have Aspergers?

But I think they have personality disorders with narc tendencies.

They might go off on one about your refusal to go on holiday with them, but they will most definitely understand that if they go on about it, you will also refuse to visit them next month or whatever.

In these circumstances I think a week end is more than sufficient-joint holidays with ILKs -even in separate accommodations=are usually disasters.

Don't do it. Don't give in to them. We only get one week away a year, nothing big, just a week away on the East Coast so no way on gods green earth would either of us consider spending it with anyone.

We once went to Ireland for a wedding with friends.

Oh shit! Ignore the last bit of my post. Meant to delete it but I clearly haven't. I'm getting distracted by children wanting things.

I think that something you need to recognise is that apologies, explanations are about you wanting to convince DPiL of your reasonableness. No matter what reasons you give they will make no difference to your DPiL unless you are doing what they want.

This doesnt mean you are wrong or a bad person it just means that explanations are redundant.

Good advice and observations from quietbatperson. She said they have you fogged. FOG is an acronym for Fear, Obligation, Guilt. It comes up regularly on the Relationships threads. Its a legacy of people like your ILs and like actual fog, you get stuck in it and it can seem impossible to see a way out. Your DP in particular seems to be crushed by it. Stately Homes thread is a great place where you will get loads of support.

Stand your ground on this one. Definitely think of it as doing it to save the relationship - because if you give in, it will be even harder next time, and your poor, poor DH is being made PHYSICALLY ILL by it. Eventually he, and you, will have no choice but to go NC with them, which will make everyone miserable. By establishing boundaries now, and enforcing them, you will ensure that some form of contact continues to be possible.

It's like the child who grabs some sweets in the supermarket. Parent says no, child screams blue murder, embarrassed parent lets child keep it. So next time parent says no, child knows they just have to scream and they will get their own way. No must mean no. If, having already said "We can't manage a week" she keeps up the pressure and you give in and go for a week, then the next time she wants something and you say you can't manage it, she will ramp the pressure up and up, knowing you will cave. Even if you intend not to cave next time, you will get more and more pressure.

MIL: We need a week away, as a family!
OP: We'd like to go away. But a week will be impossible.
MIL: We need a week, as a family.
OP: We could do a long weekend.
MIL: He needs to spend time with his family!
OP: Yes, I agree. We can manage a long weekend.
MIL: No, we deserve a week! Together! As a family!
OP: How about you book a cottage for a week, and we'll come for a few days, and then BIL can come a bit later, so there's an overlap period in the middle when we're all together and you get your week away
MIL: WE ALL HAVE TO BE THERE FOR A WEEK!
OP: No, we don't. It's a weekend or nothing.
MIL: Twist his arm!
OP: Let us know which weekend is best for you. I have to go now. Bye.

Next time you speak:
MIL: We need a week away, as a family!
OP: You already know we can't do that. Do you want to talk about which weekend we can make it?
MIL: We need a week, as a family.
OP: No. A weekend or nothing.
MIL: He needs to spend time with his family!
OP: I need to go now. Bye.

It's very, very hard to hang up - and you will certainly be the "bad person" for doing this. She may get extremely upset about it. But it's her choice how to take it. You are being perfectly reasonable. She can choose to respond reasonably or not. Your poor DH - and you - don't deserve this. If he's not strong enough to stand up to her then you need to step up - as you are doing.

Oh wow, op- this year and every year we need a week?! You need to nip this in the bud! Start correcting. No, mil, you WANT a week, but we have already told you that's not going to be possible, not this year, and most certainly not every year. Now we did offer four days( i would make it 3 nights, 4 days to be safe!) do you want to arrange something?

tara - that script is brilliant! I'm going to try that next time we speak. I think the idea that you and others have suggested of gently shifting to 'A weekend or nothing' is an extremely good one. Thank you!

Lotta/ quietbatperson - I love your name! Love Thick of It! I am reading about FOG this morning - I think you are spot on that this is happening to DH and I hope that understanding it better will help. He is definitely getting stronger at handling them with the counselling.

Gnome/lotta/girly - I don't think they are actually autistic, but I do think they have some kind of inability to function properly in a social way. They basically behave like we are children a lot of the time. MIL will do very sweet things like make animal shapes on my food, and she genuinely, genuinely means to please and delight me that way. I try to react gracefully without turning into a four year old!! :)

One thing is, I believe that this is a period of adjustment for them and that they are trying but finding it incredibly hard. DH and BIL were single or in non-committed relationships for a very long time until their mid 30s. PIL treated them very much like children, and I think they both put up with this because it was easier than challenging it. Then both DH and BIL met new partners and settled down at about the same time. This has meant that PIL have suddenly had to adjust, for the first time, to differences in family culture and to new commitments. It has been really hard for them - they have been used to having both sons at their beck and call and now there are these other, strange people around. I know that they want their sons to be happy, but they still can't wrap their head around the fact that I have my own family, as does BIL's partner. Treating us as adults is clearly a big category shift for them. MIL will do things that are meant to be very, very sweet and kind but are a bit inappropriate, e.g. making animal shapes in my food (yes really!!!). She was like this with GFIL when caring for him, too, which caused no end of grief because he was a fiercely independent and strong man who hated the fact that he was elderly and absolutely did not want to be spoken to as if he was a toddler!

I can see that they are trying in this department, though. It's mostly about really minor stuff- FIL will say something like 'It's time to draw the curtains' and MIL will say 'It's not your house! You can't tell them what to do!'. And vice versa. I could hear FIL in the background when MIL was insisting that we went to this damn funeral trying to make her stop. So there is a little chink of daylight in there at times, and I hope that we can work to expand that.

Ooops, sorry for repeating myself there! I'm becoming as bad as they are!! :D

OP, your DH is often so stressed by his "D"Ps that he's sick, he's been bullied by his parents on the past and you've mentioned there's been violence.

This doesn't sound like they're just "socially awkward". They sound like awful, self-centred bullies.

Op you've had 7 pages of people saying the same thing - your in-laws are not socially awkward/sweet and kind, they are bulldozing, selfish bullies who insist on getting their own way. You have dropped in their 'violence' towards your DH and in the next breath described them as 'lovely'. But they make him physically sick?

I don't think you are are taking any of this good advice on board. Oh well, carry on, hope you enjoy the family holiday.

I don't think there was any chink of daylight. Fil was sick Of MIL going on about it, is all. He didn't care whether you went to the funeral or not, he just wanted her to shut up full stop.

Please stop trying to justify their behaviour, however they dress it up as generous or sweet. Remember that poison can taste sweet, but it will still kill you.

Saying 'they're narcs/bullies, go NC' and then getting cross with the OP for not immediately taking your advice isn't helpful. There are obviously positive aspects to this relationship in amongst the very challenging ones and it seems clear the OP and DH don't want at this stage to consider drastic action.

After years of being railroaded it takes time and confidence building to start to challenge it, not to mention thinking time. The OPs entitled to take as long over this as she wants, not to do it to MNs schedule.

I agree with you rumble.

If my MIL made animal shapes in my food I would not interpret this as 'sweet, kind and caring'. I would call it patronizing and controlling.

Just saying.

It's not just your DH that is trapped in FOG - get yourself a copy of Susan Forward's 'Toxic in-Laws' ASAP.